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I just started reading a very interesting book (Developer Testing: Building Quality Into Software (amazon)[^]) and the intro reminded me of a time I had a similar exchange with a dev.
Jeff Langr said: One developer, however, quit two days later without saying a word to me. I was told that he said something to the effect that “I’m never going to write a test, that’s not my job as a programmer.” I was initially concerned that I’d been too eager (though I’d never insisted on anything, just attempted to educate). I no longer felt guilty after seeing the absolute nightmare that was his code, though.
Back in the day when I was in QA, I approached a developer about a recent change he'd made to the code.
Me: "Hey, can I get the data you used to test your changes?"
Dev: "What data?"
Me: "Well, you know. The data you used to test after you made the changes and did the build? I figure I can use it as a starting place for data I can send through to insure the changes work."
Dev: "Oh. I didn't run any tests. That's for you to do. I built the thing and put it out there. Now, go test it."
Me:  
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And these are the people who write the code used by your bank, your car, your life support machine ...
Frightening, isn't it?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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OriginalGriff wrote: And these are the people who write the code used by your bank, your car, your life support machine
You nailed it with that!!! Exactly. And it is scary.
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OriginalGriff wrote: used by your bank, your car, your life support machine
User Acceptance Testing?
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WiganLatics wrote: User Acceptance Testing?
That's how things are done.
Just consider the current failure rates for HDD's. They're cheap and they'll replace it. Much cheaper for them then paying someone to make sure they (at least) work when they leave the factory.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I happen to know persons who shall remain nameless who have built banking systems. Unnamed persons who had to sneak into the server center to run an upgrade at 2am to cover a small but fatal bug that was causing the bank's retail system to crash every day just after noon. I have no intention of naming the persons involved in that one or that I had to leave a half pint in the pub. 
veni bibi saltavi
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Don't even talk about the banks... 
I worked in the financial industry for 20 years. What an utter mess!
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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In the late 1990's I worked at ISSC on the Integrion Project (as a QA tester), which was a consortium of banks that banded together to create the base code for what is now your online banking software. It has improved since then, but I assure you the pen-pocket engineers (they did exist) at IBM who were in charge of this also tested what they created. What you should worry about now are those making the improvements as the software has become more decentralized.
Sorry this was so serious, I've been reading Trump news this morning and am very sangry.
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Ha! And my silly me is trying to get up a CI with unit test automation and code inspection.
(Still working on the unit tests though  )
How come i didn't know that it's not my job ...
Rules for the FOSW ![ ^]
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
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else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}
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HobbyProggy wrote: How come i didn't know that it's not my job
You're such a naive dev thinking that you have to test.
Here's the latest
Mic-Drop Coding Methodology...
Step 1 : Write Code
Step 2 : Drop code -- I'm out!
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Testing is pointless. By the time you're done writing the code to meet the requirements, the requirements change, and the changes remain a closely held secret until the day the code is scheduled to be delivered\submitted to be tested.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: By the time you're done writing the code to meet the requirements, the requirements change
Oh, silly you. You're talking about real software that exists in the real world.
Testing is only for vaporware. That way we can('t) be sure we got it right and wrong.
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Those are probably Heisenbugs: they probably don't exist until some eejit tests for them.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I assume that you are joking.
If there were any truth at all to what you are saying, then your software architecture certainly should be revised. Sure requirements change, but not into a completely different problem. The basic task is still the same, and thre great majority of the modules stay unchanged. Those that are modified, are usuall functionally extended, or, for user/protocol interface modules, mostly reorganized. If every requirement change invalidates all tests for all modules and subsystems, then I would be scared to use your code for anytning at all.
Even if you are joking (which I certainly hope): Too often you see arguments very close to the one you make, but said in dead earnest. "This is just a temporary solution". "The testing procedures are not yet updated to account for the changes" etc. We should be very sensitive to that kind of arguments, and immediately set down our foot.
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I assume you're referring to Unit Testing, not "I ran it and it works on my machine"
Based on my experience the majority of software shops don't do testing, meaning it's not a required part of the development experience.
I just started a new position.. no unit testing.
Last position... HAHAHA - Testing?? Are you kidding??? Who's got time for that?
Previous position.... Some unit tests in some teams
Previous position.... What's a Unit Test???
Previous position.... I'm working 60+ hours/week... I don't have time for that...
Previous position.... Looks like it's running... Send it to QA.
.
.
.
and so on.
I think that there's a stigma associated with Testing that the primary purpose of a developer is to write code, and testing isn't code.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind.
Ya can't fix stupid.
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Kevin Marois wrote: I think that there's a stigma associated with Testing that the primary purpose of a developer is to write code, and testing isn't code.
Yes, but the stigma of producing terrible code that literally crashes in production is far worse.
The best kind of testing (and software development) occurs when a developer (no matter the level) literally thinks:
I _own_ this software and it represents me.
However, in corporate environments -- yes I work in one too -- this does not occur for many reasons:
* dev is ignored anyways
* dev has so many layers of management no one ever really talks to dev anyways
* project is boring
* project is doomed for other reasons anyways
* there were no actual requirments created anyways, so anything could be accepted (screw it)
* people in charge who are driving the project don't know anything about actual software dev anyways
Too many more to list here.
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Ok drop the mask who are you of my colleagues? Knock the Imperial march on the desk so I can recognize you!
DURA LEX, SED LEX
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote: Ok drop the mask who are you...
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What is this "requirements" you speak of.
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urlonz wrote: What is this "requirements" you speak of.
It's funny...as long as it is someone else trying to hit a unknown target.
Sales: Users want a thing.
Dev: Uh, can you describe it to me? Let's meet and gather some requirements.
Sales: Can't you just build it? Are you stupid or something? You aren't really a dev are you? I asked Bill-Bob in Tech support who knows Python and he said he can build it for me in 2 days.
Dev: Billy-Bob is a genius!! Go for it.
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How many times have I had this conversation. Real-life conversation between me and a member of sales as we sat down to lunch one day:
Sales: Hey, how is the Project X thing going along?
Dev: What's Project X?
Sales: You know, Project X. We've been selling it over the last month.
Dev: Never heard of it.
Sales: Geez, man. We have a client coming onboard next week.
Dev: I guess you should explain to me just what you've been selling.
Sales: I don't have time for that, but you need to get on that right away.
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And so it goes... Laughing or I'll cry 
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raddevus wrote: The best kind of testing (and software development) occurs when a developer (no matter the level) literally thinks:I own this software and it represents me.
I disagree. I don't consider myself the owner of any of the code I write. Author, yes, owner, no. I've seen too many cases where having devs think they own code leads to egos being attached to the code, which creates worse roadblocks to getting it fixed than anything else.
I just test the code I write so whenever there's a problem, I know it'll be in someone else's code instead of mine. Helps me relax at night  .
Oh, and test data? A useful tool, but not a sufficient one. It misses sooo much, and all the bugs that cause catastrophic failures are almost always in untested parts of the code. As devs, its our job to not leave parts of the code untested. Period.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Good discussion and viewpoint.
patbob wrote: I don't consider myself the owner of any of the code I write.
I have a conflict with this but I lean toward ownershipo because I have created numerous projects that I am the requirements gatherer, system analyst, developer, tester and deployer. I own it 100%.
You can see the app I created this way on multiple platforms:
Swift (iOS) app in app store : CYaPass on the App Store[^]
Android app in Google Play ==> CYaPass in Google Play[^]
As a windows winform app: ==> C'YaPass: Forget All Your Passwords | Get C'YaPass[^]
and even as a JavaScript, HTML5, Canvas app -- no install required, try it in your browser:
C'YaPass: Forget All Your Passwords | WebApp[^]
So my ownership ideas come from that. And I know dev's egos go crazy at times, but without ownership people just don't give a crap how things turn out generally. Just an opinion of course.
patbob wrote: s devs, its our job to not leave parts of the code untested. Period.
I know. You can't do everything. Except, when you have to.
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At my last position, we were responsible for making sure the code compiled, ran without exceptions, and updated the UI as expected. At that point, we handed it over to Q/A who had test cases to run the code against. We had to do this because most of the changes were UI changes, and you can't really automate them. All tests were run with a video capture so we could re-run the videos to see what the user did to make the code fault. It worked pretty well.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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