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"do you trust in a legal agreement signed in the EU or not."
The issue was that it wasn't a legal agreement at all. Apple's lawyers should have worked that out. Due dilligence etc.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough."
Alan Kay.
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digimanus wrote: It is typical US Corporations that want to benefit more than it's competitors....
and, of course EU corporations would never think of trying to beat their competitors.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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CAn EU Companies get 0.005 Tax rate in US?
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either).
By now, you really get the point:
A contract made by an entity legally entitled to make its own decisions (like a sovereign nation) is responsible to uphold the contract. If they're not so obligated then there's no way for anyone to do any business, certainly not internationally, as there would be absolutely no trust.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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More to the point - can US companies get it. If they could they'd not build plants (etc.) in the EU! So - guess what - the federal government does not offer those tax rates to EU Companies (either).
Apple has it in Ireland
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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digimanus wrote: Apple has it in Ireland
Yeah - I saw the article - and who gave them that rate. It wasn't the US Government. It was the Irish government. Do they run their own country or not? Can they make legal decision about how their nations is to be run . . . or not.
If not, then stop calling the EU members separate countries. They're states or provinces of the EU and they should all drop their individual UN memberships (for example) as, like US states, they're not sovereign entities.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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In the end it is unfair to other US Companies that do not even get close to that %
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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Well - yes - in a way you're right.
It's not fairness to US companies that the EU is concerned with.
It's punishing the success of US companies that are foolish enough to do business in the EU.
Also, grabbing $14 Billion will go a long way towards paying for the refugee crisis whilst they try to find an excuse to fine another US company.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Apple made over $250 Billion dollars profit in the EU. And all the Irish employees of Apple is not even 20% of all european Apple workers. Apple Benefits with over $2.5M per Irish Employee with barely paying taxes.
Furthermore Apple collects all there EU sells in Ireland and their they pay taxes not in other EU countries. So the deal with Ireland has effect on the total EU. That is why the announcement was made today. If there is ever gonna be a payment depends on the future. Not only Apple but also Ireland is appealing.
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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So - who's idea in the Irish Government was it to make this deal?
Why did they make it? Ireland clearly wasn't thinking about the rest of the EU so I'd suspect there was something in it for them.
Perhaps, instead of adding up how much various places didn't get - add up how much they did get. Perhaps the answer lies there.
Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: Did Apple break any laws or was it Ireland - or perhaps greedy folk on the other side of the channel.
'
That is why I state about the appeals
In Word you can only store 2 bytes. That is why I use Writer.
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No, they will get a 0% tax rate.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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W∴ Balboos wrote: If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem.
As I understand it, it's not just fines but also back taxes.
Assuming you're USian, if your company screws up your W-2, it's not the company on the hook for back taxes and penalties to the IRS, it's you. Figure it's pretty much the same case here, just a bit bigger than what you or I would owe Uncle Sam.
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It's exactly the point: Back Taxes - when the agreement they made with the host country was for taxes at a given rate.
As for the W2 error analogy - not correct. The error was in the calculation on an agreement (if you wish to call it that) between the worker and the government in how much tax they are to pay. If the company, acting as their agent, miscalculates it, it doesn't change the agreement between the taxpayer and the government: the rate is still the same.
If, however, the government offered you a tax break for opening up a business in a specific location (and may states do this) - that's there business. The federal government does so, as well. Once the deal's made, if the recipient lives up to their part of the contract then the government cannot simply change the rules - not without compensation.
So - if the taxes were underpaid because Ireland (and others) made deal, it's up to them to uphold the agreement. They made the deal for their own benefit (don't blame everything on Apple) and so they must uphold the deal.
Or, were the Brits more correct than ever in Brexit, lest the EU overrun their country as if it were the EU's own.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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But a state can't promise to lower my federal taxes - they don't have that authority. We may set up a contract like that, though (If I'm uneducated in how the tax system in the US works), but it's entirely unenforceable.
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Vark111 wrote: But a state can't promise to lower my federal taxes
So - who does apple pay taxes to? Ireland, right. What they need to do with their taxes (viz-a-viz, the EU) is their business. If they wish to subsidize the rate to get the employment - is it not their right as the owners of the country?
Ireland didn't negotiate down the tax rate of a company setting up in Spain. That's Spain's right (or should be).
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible
I hope I live to see that day 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Strongly disagree there. Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money doesn't mean that Apple should be getting away with that.
The EU is right in drawing the line. Sure nations should be competing with tax rates if they are rooted in efficiency, but this was a bullshit deal.
Wout
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wout de zeeuw wrote: Just because a handful of government suits decide to give away their nation's money
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there.
Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
wout de zeeuw wrote: The EU is right in drawing the line.
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment.
The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there.
Except that people didn't vote for this. This kind of bullshit deals is done in back rooms by individuals whilst having some champagne, and people only find out about these deals years later.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay. And this is the problem. These mobster companies are hawking for countries that are desperate for jobs, and that are willing to sign away their lives for it. The EU is doing the right thing in stopping these maffia companies from exploiting the weak point in its armor.
W∴ Balboos wrote: The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want, you can't give one company a big advantage compared to another company. It's not arbitrary, Apple should pay taxes that is in line that what other companies are paying.
W∴ Balboos wrote: There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment.
The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
Not worried about that. Surely the world needs investment, and paying taxes is part of that. Apple makes great products (but not indispensible). It does not, and should not need unfair advantages to be able to compete. If they need money laundering deals with fantasy constructs like non-existing head quarters[^], let them exploit some other little country. If companies will leave Ireland, that might give some short term transitional issues, but the EU will help them out with this.
Wout
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At this point your flailing for ways to excuse the inexcusable and ignoring the reality:
wout de zeeuw wrote: Except that people didn't vote for this.
- which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
wout de zeeuw wrote: The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay
And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want,
So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business.
I can hear it all now blaring from the TV on "France 24":
How dare you conduct such business in the EU. That will be against the law! You will be prosecuted and punished! for violating EU rules we will write especially for you. Also, we have decided that the new national language of Ireland will henceforth be Esperanto. Now, get us some more wine. The meeting isn't over.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: - which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
I'm saying the tax rulings where never on any party program, therefore the (Irish) people did not vote for it. Did the US people vote for the wrongful invasion of Iraq for alleged weapons of mass destruction? Democracy is a flawed mechanism, and governments hardly do what people voted for.
W∴ Balboos wrote: And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
The point was already pretty clear, but here it is again: nations need to compete on merit, not on how much money they're giving away to lure a fish.
W∴ Balboos wrote: So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business.
You are making things up, laws are not written retroactively. It was already illegal to give tax benefits to a selection of companies. This is now being enforced. I don't care who's getting fat, but Apple does have to play by the EU rules. Besides, the 13.5% tax or so is still low, I wouldn't be screaming rip off about that.
Wout
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wout de zeeuw wrote: You are making things up, laws are not written retroactively. It was already illegal to give tax benefits to a selection of companies
""They don't have responsibility for taxes and they are opening a back door through state aid to influence tax policy in European countries when the European treaties say tax policy is a matter for sovereign governments," he added."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance-idUSKCN114211[^]
You may reply, but as of this post I'll comply with sensible "take it to the SoapBox requests
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Thank you for agreeing that laws are not retroactively being changed. Your quote doesn't provide any argument, it's the view point of the Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan who is desperate to keep the big coorperations in. The EU rightfully wants to level the playing field.
How this all plays out exactly will be decided in court anyway, and most likely some compromise will be struck. But the party is definitely over for companies like Apple.
Wout
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W∴ Balboos wrote: they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in XXXX and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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