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No, I envy students.
Those were the most happy days!
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Quote: most students code better than Sr. Software Engineers
Not a chance. But their arrogance and a dash of ignorance makes them think they do.
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iskSYS wrote: Not a chance.
Yes... more than a chance
iskSYS wrote: But their arrogance and a dash of ignorance makes them think they do.
Same can be told about some seniors.
I have seen and been in both sides.
When I was junior I corrected buggy software from seniors, and being senior a trainee of mine showed me something I had buried in my code that could have blown up the application in a chain process if a serie of conditions had met.
I agree that experience is a master and that in a big %, senior means better quality. But there are no absolute values.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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You said that most students code better than sr. engineers.
That can't be true no matter how you spin it. And it is offensive to senior engineers.
Personally, I have trained many students, and I was impressed by maybe ten percent of them, who I am convinced they would do amazing in life.
I haven't met one student who can code better than me, as you say. They are enthusiastic or depressed, intelligent or dumb, hard working or lazy, curious to learn or not, but I have never seen one to code better than a senior. And I am not surprised, because they don't have the training, and usually the discipline to keep a steady work and finish, most often they worry about the next party, or getting drunk. Short attention span.
That makes it hard to believe that in your area most students code better than senior developers.
But, I recognize there is a chance that the brightest and hardest working students on the planet converged in your area, and the worst senior developers happen to work in your area, too. The chance for that happening in real life is too low to consider,t hough.
Is it common in your area to use hyperbole to express a feeling?
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First of all... I think you are answering to the wrong person, or you did not read correctly what I said.
I didn't say that most students are better. I answered to the previous message: Quote: Not a chance. But their arrogance and a dash of ignorance makes them think they do.
When I was junior, I could not code better than my senior, but I got over him pretty fast. He was lazy, no maintenance of the code, Copy+paste and then block / comment sections instead of cleaning up, variable names without any convention and many other more... and he was senior.
He could still solve more problems than me due to knowledge and experience, but I could code better than him.
IanArhip wrote: That makes it hard to believe that in your area most students code better than senior developers.
I never said that. I just said, that there are students than can be better, not that all / most are. It is a substantial difference.
IanArhip wrote: The chance for that happening in real life is too low to consider,t hough.
Then I have broken several statistics, because I have already met some terrible seniors (sadly not only one or two)... by customers / suppliers and so on, and not only in my area of expertise or in technical departments, I found them in other departments (finances, marketing, HHRR...) as well.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I met terrible seniors too, I think everybody has.
The original post claimed that all juniors are better than all seniors, and I thought you were supporting that.
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Quote: most students code better than Sr. Software Engineers, at least in my area.
Read the content fully, excerpts don't make much of a sense, and cause a confusion. 
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: Every second or next survey is about the professionals only
Looking through the list of recent surveys, that really doesn't seem to apply to very many at all, let alone half of them. Am I missing something?
Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: Students also code, and most students code better than Sr. Software Engineers, at least in my area.
Yes, there are people in senior positions who really don't deserve to be and I dare say that there are some students who could do a better job than some of them but generally speaking, people who've been doing something for a long time tend to be a tad better than the beginners. That's true in all trades not just IT. If (God forbid) you ever needed open-heart surgery would you opt for a consultant or a first-year medical student?
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PeejayAdams wrote: If (God forbid) you ever needed open-heart surgery would you opt for a consultant or a first-year medical student?
I would prefer to be operated for a first year motivated student than to be operated by an bored / rutinary and even drunk consultant that has no more thinking that to end it fast so he can go play golf.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I love this effect, and I have been using this effect in an way, no one might have thought of... Say, I use it as, "Yes I can do it!" See where it all brought me to,
- On August 16, 3 years ago, I didn't even know there are function in programming, and they can take parameters. Here is the proof, Inserting data in database.. | The ASP.NET Forums[^], see how "stupid" I was.
- After a while, a year, I kept working and thinking "I can do it", I was awarded MVP at C# Corner, again at C# Corner, then at CodeProject, and now Microsoft MVP too. Can you go from zero to hero, in 3 years, that even Microsoft starts to "not" ask you to buy their products and just use them?
Take my advice, use this effect. It will make you brighter.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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I taught some senior level courses at the local university.
A Student, by definition, is someone who is still getting their education.
I am assuming a Sr. Developer not to be based on age, but on skillset.
And in particular, "core skillset". Not some 55 year old Cobol programmer now
being forced to do JavaScript. Because in this case, he may be a Student of Javascript,
despite being a very Senior Developer.
There were 2-3 kids in each class who could actually code already. There were 5-7 that were lost.
And the rest of them were actively learning, but I would NEVER allow work on production code. And
this was their last year at the University.
I believe you got caught up in Hyperbole.
But lets get back to your question: Asking "student" questions of a "professional" group.
The VAST majority of us here are NOT students, per se. We may be learning skills, but we are
mostly professionals. And if we stay here at this site for 10+ years, I can promise you that we
are, on average, not students for the majority of the time, despite being in "student/learning" mode.
So, why should the surveys represent the most transient set of us?
BTW, I will ask you one of my day one questions. WITHOUT looking it up. Focusing mostly on the C programming language. Please tell me the difference between for and while statements, and when and why you should use each?
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Quote: I believe you got caught up in Hyperbole.
No, I just got fed up by the so-called professionals around my area (within range of 400 km).
Quote: difference between for and while statements, and when and why you should use each?
I will try to improvise.
- There is no difference, just sugar coating. The main answer is in the hands of Assembly generated, which (I believe) will be same.
- For normally leaves the control to "what data has", whereas while leaves the control to what user 2as (or what program has).
- For can be helpful in cases where you know where to start and where to end, whereas while is helpful in cases where you just know when to stop (unexpected end possibly).
- For has a cleaner syntax (IMO), while requires extra statements that are embedded in for loop's statement.
In the light of what I have said above, use for in cases where you are going to iterate over a collection of available data; contacts, database records, or any already available data structure, whereas while can be helping for the cases where you are still capturing the data; loading the buffers, reading files, getting data from user — enter 'q' to quit etc.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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First,
Excellent answer. The short version is what you said in the end.
Use a FOR loop when you KNOW the start/stop, have a count, etc.
Use a WHILE when its a condition (while !eof, while !null) reading an arbitrary file is a great example.
Why does it matter. Because, like you said, to the compiler, it might be the same.
But the compiler is only 1 of 3 consumers of our source code. And it is the most demanding, so
forget about it. The difference is in what you are communicating about the problem you are solving.
And for me, that is the beginning of a Sr. level developer. They not only get the right answer, they get the answer right. I usually teach the students to solve every problem 3 times. Once to prove you can. Once to get it clean. And the last time to get it right. To remove all excess baloney and make something you are proud to turn in.
Sorry to hear about the people in your area.
I run into it in some places, all the time. People who have 5 years of experience, that REALLY have 1yr of experience 5 times in a row. Imagine telling me you have 3 years of SVN experience, and I ask you about merging. And you tell me you have never done a branch, tag, or merge. My response is that you don't have 3 years of SVN experience. You have 3 years of SVN COMMIT experience, LOL.
My favorite was a guy who hired a new PHP developer. The programmer had 10 years of experience, and was willing to work for $16.00/hr (full time=$32K/yr). I tried to explain to the manager. Only one of those facts should be true. (This is South Florida. Not quite CA or NY, but not cheap either).
Lets just say, it ended badly about 9 months later. Nothing this guy wrote could be trusted. And he was sooo close the last 3 months. LOL.
So, be the best you can be. Help mentor those who want to learn. Avoid those who don't, and find peace in the fact that you will leave a positive impact on those that got to know you!
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Thank you for such kind words and good examples from your own experience. Will keep them all in mind, Kirk.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: I am assuming a Sr. Developer not to be based on age, but on skillset.
And that is exactly the point in my other messages. Pity is that there are quite a lot seniors that just got there due to time in the company and not only for merits. And those... those are damm dangerous.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: Then I look for a better institute, university preferably
So does that make you a professional student? I have a problem with someone who constantly learns in tertiary institutions never actually puts that knowledge to use in the real world.
I have known a few, very few, professional students and not one of them would I employ to do actual work.
So while I don't hate students I do dislike professional students.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Afzaal Ahmad Zeeshan wrote: Students also code, and most students code better than Sr. Software Engineers
File this under "I am a bit too arrogant junior who didn't do much networking yet." 
T.
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LOL, please if a student codes better than a senior dev the dev is not senior and should find another job.
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Quote: Where are "for only professionals who code"?
Well, there is the option for "I don't work" so I don't see what the problem is. I also don't see the particular harm in a poll occasionally being directed toward working professionals. There are plenty of other polls regarding development styles and software choices.
Quote: Students also code, and most students code better than Sr. Software Engineers, at least in my area.
Hm, I think perhaps the notion of "Senior" is often misconceived. From my understanding, it doesn't solely focus on the length of time an individual has been developing, or even how long they have remained at a single company.
My understanding of a "Senior" developer is that they are not only capable of handling the full development life-cycle, but also being able to direct and guide others, as well as being able to think outside of the box.
I think the difference here (and this is my opinion, I don't have any facts) is that students and post-graduates tend to have a greater understanding of modern development technologies and constructs than those in working roles. When you develop software for a company, unless you're lucky, the majority of the time you're extending an exist product. Introducing new technologies and frameworks isn't always as simple as you would expect.
The problem is that most students (again, my opinion) don't seem to have much idea of what working on existing products and platforms really entails. And while they may have a firmer understanding of newer technologies, and how to write more syntactically correct code, and even perform correct testing, a student cannot measure their own seniority or programming capabilities until they are thrown into development on live products, where they must work alongside other colleagues, ensuring that their changes are backward and forward compatible, and must also utilise the frameworks and technologies available to them (though those used to working on open source projects may have a better understanding.)
That's my two cents anyway. It might be utter crap, but on more than one occasion when I have either: a) hired a new developer; b) moved job and started alongside others, I have seen people try and update dependencies and libraries and bring in new technology, only to have everything break. Being a good developer isn't just about how "good" you can program, or how much knowledge you have, it's also about being able to adjust to how a company or product practises.
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I stayed at one gig for 6.5 years. I stayed at another for 14 months. It all depends on the culture.
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A large part of what keeps me at companies is respect and whether or not I am having fun solving the problems that I get to work on each day.
If you can't respect me or vice versa then I leave.
If the problems I am working aren't fun, challenging or allowing to expand my skill set than I will leave.
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Apart from having to relocate on account of family reasons, the only time I've left a job is when I thought I wasn't growing professionally. As long as I'm learning on the job and my skills continue to be kept current, I've felt no reason to leave. Also, I happen to ![Heart | [heart]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/love.gif) my current company and the work I do.
/ravi
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I agree with you. Unfortunately, it does not always work out that way. Here, in the United States, companies expand and contract, appear and disappear with alarming frequency. My resume is littered with companies that have merged into others, been downsized due to a dearth of new contracts, been spun off from a larger corporation without the resources to succeed, gone bankrupt and other ignoble fates.
The other "job killer" for me is being forced into management. I became a programmer because I like to play with computers. Every time I am forced into management, I find more and more of my time is tied up in paperwork, meetings and personnel activities, leaving me precious little time to play with computers. Being a manager is a job I do not like, with too much stress and too little reward.
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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Jalapeno Bob wrote: Here, in the United States,
Actually I've worked most of my life in the US. I only moved to Canada ten years ago. I guess I've been lucky enough to work at established organizations (early in my career) and successful startups since the 2000s (although I've experienced a couple of crash and burns, too).
Jalapeno Bob wrote: being forced into management
Yes, that would it do it for me too. I've always chosen to stay technical. I think companies that offer a purely technical sofware engineering career path do exist, but are usually small to medium size outfits. I don't think I would ever work for a large organization again.
/ravi
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