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Ancient Zygote wrote: I don't think many informed consumers do
Oh, very good. Nice little barb at the end there. No matter the 150 million installations and rising. We're all 'uninformed'. Splendid!
Well I'll just get back to my out of touch, ignorant, computing life and leave you and your 'informed' consumers to scrabble around trying to make a silk ear out of Linux then. That is your sponsor, I assume?
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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9082365 wrote: to make a silk ear out of Linux
Software Zen: delete this;
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I didn't intend to insult anyone who has chosen to use Windows 10. I was simply noting, as did Forbes in their November 10, 2015 article "Microsoft Admits Windows 10 Secretly Installed On Windows 7, Windows 8", that there was not a lot of interest in Windows 10, or outright negative feelings about it, such that Microsoft began surreptitiously installing Win 10 on Win 7 and Win 8 customer computers in November without their permission after the initial 5.38% market share obtained in August 2015 slipped to about 1.4% increases in Sept and Oct 2015. So, many of the 200 million devices Yusuf Mehdi, Corporate Vice President, Windows and Devices Group at Microsoft, now using Windows 10 may not have made that choice voluntarily.
In addition, since the IT world is just now beginning to realize what Windows 10 actually is, i.e., a SaaS platform with all user data on a PC now subject to transmission back to Microsoft, I intended to imply that many of the people who did actually voluntarily accept the free install of Windows 10 probably did so without realizing how great the change was from previous operating systems provided by Microsoft. I know it took me about a month of reading reports from IT folks before it began to sink in that this was unprecedented.
It is amusing that Microsoft has been parrying the concerns about the invasion of privacy with Windows 10 and then Mehdi (introduced above) makes a crowing announcement recently highlighting statistics of exactly what Windows 10 users have been doing on their computers! Mehdi gives the minutes spent using the Edge browser, questions asked with Cortana, number of photos viewed with the Win 10 photo app, number of hours spent playing games on Windows 10, number of hours streaming xbox to Win 10 pc's, number of Bing queries made from Win 10 devices...Forbes asks, is Microsoft recording the actual Cortana queries? The answer according to the Micorosft privacy statements I have read, and their analysis by reputable tech industry analysts, is yes.
Let me state again that I am not challenging Microsoft's right to do anything they like in a product or service they offer in the market, as long as that is a free market (not the monopoly on Intel compatible PCs that they have enjoyed since MSDOS) and the buyers voluntarily, knowing what they are purchasing, choose to use the product. When Windows 10 is to be preinstalled on all new PC's, that is monopoly behavior that really needs to be re-examined in light of the actual characteristics of this new product. I am surprised that Google doesn't complain, since if you are going to ship all PC's with a cloud-based no expectation of privacy OS then why not ship it with a choice of Google Chrome OS?
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Ancient Zygote wrote: is Microsoft recording the actual Cortana queries
Yes, of course it is. It's a search engine (well an interface with Bing anyway). Most search engines retain questions you ask for all kinds of interesting reasons. See Google's trending stats, for example. But, for what nowseems to be the millionth time, using Windows 10 does not require you to use Cortana, nor Bing as your default search engine. It is an optional, additional service. It is not part of the OS.
Ancient Zygote wrote: When Windows 10 is to be preinstalled on all new PC's
If that were true, and it is far from it, it would have absolutely nothing to do with Microsoft. It is a choice made entirely by the manufacturers and sellers of PCs. Equally it is entirely the choice of the buyers to obtain their computer through those outlets that do preinstall Windows and, having done so, whether to keep it or install an alternative (a choice not afforded in any way to buyers of Apple computers, of course!)
Like Google's, Microsoft's 'monopoly' is a posteriori, the result of producing the most sought after product. It is not the case that there is no competition and no option for the consumer.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Cortana is going to be the primary interface to the Windows operating system. It assumes that role now in a development stage, which goes to the question of why Microsoft insists that any interaction with Cortana is subject to their remote transmission and analysis (this whole speech to text problem is a very difficult nut to crack and initially is requiring remote massive processing power and analysis). To assert that this is a minor problem since an IP address might be scrubbed is foolishness (you can hardly remove your name and other identifying data from an all-inclusive stream of anything you may say in interating with your personal computer, not to mention the data stored on the computer, which is also subject to use by MS). I realize you find this horrifying and don't want to believe it is happening (I'm with you in that reaction).
Now as to installation of Windows 10 on most PC's in the future being an independent decision of OEM's (and chipmakers) and Microsoft having earned its place as a monopoly by offering a superior product in a free market, I'm not going to rehash decades of public record in the law. I'll just point you at one relevant court decision:
253 F. 3d 34 - Court of Appeals, Dist. of Columbia Circuit, 2001.
This was the court favorable to Microsoft, the one that reversed Judge Jackson's order to break up Microsoft. However, they did not deny that Microsoft was a monopoly in the operating system market for Intel-compatible computers and maintained that position via illegal activity (e.g., polluting the Java code base, forcing Apple to use IE, forcing Intel to stop supporting Java, etc. etc.). If you will spend the time to read the entire court opinion, it is an astounding detailed factual account of the thuggish (I cannot avoid the use of that term) illegal conduct by Microsoft.
There apparently was some kind of understanding reached with Bill Gates, since he withdrew from an active role in the company after that and only returned in 2014 (hence the frightening recent developments, grin). For earlier judicial comment on what Microsoft was doing to offer "the most sought after product," see Judge Stanley Sporkin's opinion 1995 in refusing to sign the consent decree to resolve US v Microsoft:
http://www.justice.gov/atr/memorandum-opinion-us-v-microsoft-corp
It does appear that Microsoft is trying to help Enterprise level customers turn off all of the remote telemetry in Windows 10:
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
I had wondered about whether they would supply this kind of assistance to customers handling sensitive coporate and national security data (unbelievably, there are such customers).
By the way, I am not a Linux user, I am embarrassed to admit. I ran Linux on a CD once in order to write an article on it a decade or so back, but like most computer users, I continued to use Windows because that was where all the applications were that I needed to do business and on any hardware offered (that is the so-called chicken and egg entry barrier discussed in the 2001 court opinion). I am not looking forward to the effort that moving to Linux is going to require (at my age I can only hope that will become unnecessary, grin).
HINT TO DEVELOPERS AND OEMS: If you build it (an inexpensive Linux notebook), they will buy it! Grow yourself a set and do it!
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Sorry about the lack of paragraph breaks. I'm a touch typist and tend to stream thought.
As for questioning whether MS actually is saying they will access personal documents on your computer etc., they are not trying to say that so clearly, but that seems to be the gist of it at:
Hmmm...I'm having trouble getting the link in.
[^]
I won't be tedious and go through a detailed semantic analysis of that page, but do advise if you think it is not saying that any content on any device you sign on to using Windows 10 will be subject to use (and that certainly means remote transmission since they are explicitly telling you that Windows 10 is no longer simply a device operating system but a cloud service in many respects).
That is certainly their right to decide they don't want to sell an operating system for your device under the old paradigm (and I'm reasonably certain that was Bill's idea, since he came back in 2014 to help MS and only he would have the power to do something like that). I just think the public should know that in plain language so they can look at alternatives if they really would prefer to run an old-fashioned private computer (with tin foil hat supplied, grin).
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Privacy; Consent to Use of Data. Your privacy is important to us. ... By accepting this agreement and using the software you agree that Microsoft may collect, use, and disclose the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement...
Microsoft Privacy Statement[^]
In the language of lawyers (I asked two) it means that you are agree that Microsoft collect and use data from your computer in any way likes...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: Microsoft collect and use data from your computer in any way likes...
I'd get a new lawyer if I were you. 
The statement you quoted clearly refers to "the information as described in the Microsoft Privacy Statement". That doesn't mean absolutely anything they want to collect; if it's not described in the privacy statement, it's not covered.
And as for "in any way it likes", the privacy statement clearly sets out the ways they'll use the data they collect. If it actually meant they could do what they like with your data, they'd be facing class action lawsuits by now.
That's not to say they can't take all of your data and do what they like with it; that's just not what the privacy statement says.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Wrong...It is true that the privacy statement referenced, but not included, and for that it can be changed whenever Microsoft want's and you still obliged to it...
More of it...In the next update Microsoft can add a new 'feature' that collects data from your computer without any acknowledge from your part...As long as there is an 'off' switch for the feature somewhere in the system Microsoft covered (even you do not know of it)...
Believe these lawyers - they are the dirtiest mind around...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Yes, they could change the privacy policy in the future. But that doesn't mean that the privacy policy as currently worded gives them carte-blanche to collect whatever they want from your system and use it however they want.
Next week, they could decide to update their privacy policy to say that you agree to give them your first born child. That doesn't mean they're coming to collect your baby today.
And AFAIK, in most legal systems, one party cannot make and enforce unilateral changes to a contract without consent from the other party.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Richard Deeming wrote: And AFAIK, in most legal systems, one party cannot make and enforce unilateral changes to a contract without consent from the other party.
True but not strictly relevant in this case, particularly if you haven't paid for it. The real point is that the OS is an at will arrangement on your part. You are not tied in to anything. You can at any time simply stop using it in part or in whole (despite the paranoid insistence above use of Cortana and the like is entirely optional) without needing to give notice or explanation. Microsoft can enforce changes on the agreement in the sense that it's their club and their rules. But you are under no obligation to join the club or, having joined, see out your membership.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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My stock of excellent tinfoil hats is always available! I take PayPal.
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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Ancient Zygote wrote: Google, for example, routinely uses data that passes through its various services, but I for one have always made a distinction between what I choose to do in a cloud environment (email, cloud store) vs. my own private computer.
What do you make of the Chromebook?
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I like the idea of the Chromebook. It makes it clear what it is. I certainly would not choose to make it my primary computing device, for the reasons I have already given.
I am not opposed to multiple computing/Internet venues/environments, but I think we should be clear about which one we are in---and let the market provide a new one if the previous owner (of the market) decides to move on.
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Paragraphs man... think about it.
Jeremy Falcon
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I second that! 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Here is a great intro to Hg source control.
It is a great walkthrough tutorial by Joel Spolsky of Joel On Software fame.
HgInit: Ground Up Mercurial[^]
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Nice.
/ravi
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3 things in this life are certain:
1) Birth (oops, not since 1973 in the U.S.)
2) Taxes (oops, again, not since 1973 in the U.S.)
3) Death (damn; that ain't no life...)
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MacSpudster wrote: Death
Death is just a another birth into another life.
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Take it to the Soapbox.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Amen.
«Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.» Benjamin Franklin
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MacSpudster wrote: 3 things in this life are certain:
Web Idiots?
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jschell wrote: Web Idiots?
There's got to be more than 3 of them Shirley!
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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There are.
And don't call them Shirley.
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