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devvvy wrote: try work for Asian masters.
One of the rampant problems everywhere in the world is people treating other people like human beings, not human "resources." We have a lot of growing, as a species, to do, emotionally and psychologically.
Marc
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But it's all my fault.
22 years ago I went from being probably over paid in So. Cal to way under paid in a resort town off in the high snowy Rockies.
Now I have all this but not all that.
And were all hear cause were not all there!
Cute cabin though, Hi speed WiFi. Moose looking in the window, Labrador on the recliner couch next to me. Dear wife made cookies....
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then you are overpaid.. 
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Dear wife. There's your problem, should have got a cheap one 
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but I think I am getting fairy / well paid.
I would like more, of course... let see how it goes.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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and hired, at least in terms of Computer Programming, an old man.
Actually - it's not that simple. I had a reason not to have "earned income" above a certain amount until a year or so ago.
So, not only am I really cute but I'm a bargain!
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I was hired, officially, as a "Java Developer". However, after a few weeks I realised that the title is irrelevant. Instead, we're expected to develop in multiple languages. As such, I've developed software in around 5 other programming languages.
I think developers should be paid relative to the complexity and value of the languages they're developing in, and the quality of the software they produce. Had I known I'd be writing a CLR library to bridge an under-documented .NET library with Java using JNI, I may have negotiated a little more money. The only reason I don't kick up a fuss is because the company is generous with progressive pay increases, and this is also my first development job, so I'm accruing experience (which is as much a requirement in industry now as having a degree or qualification.)
I believe the real question for this poll is: are you paid a salary or wage which is relatively close to what you expect your services, experience and time to be worth, compared to what your company believes?
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First:
I am still trainee I so yeah i won't get the money i deserve!
But jokes aside.
I have chosen to get into a company that pays good and with a tariff.
So from that side i feel totally comfty with it.
On the other side, this aint a IT company and i am developing stuff for (mostly) internal use, except from my current project i'd say i get paid enough. But currently i am one person that fills positions for a 10 headed dev team.
And i actually don't know if the final (when out of trainee) ~57k € +(~15-30% bonus if you are good) a year are a good payment.
got the number from this Attention direct download and in german[^]
Rules for the FOSW ![ ^]
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}
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To buy a boat? ...nope
To buy a house with a swimming pool? ...nope
To buy a sports car? ...nope
To buy a new 50 inch 4K TV and spend the whole weekend drunk? ... HELL YEAH!!!
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From this point of view, we're paid enough
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No, not underpaid, just really bad at Googling 
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9$/hour for 160 hours/month. The advantage is that I get paid the same regardless of my productivity (which they try to keep as low as possible with idiotic policies) and I do not have to bring work at home or do extra time (it happened very rarely). Still it is very little - even considering that the maximum pay on average isn't much higher... My coworkers with 12 yeras of experience are paid 13$/hour. That's the market in Italy...
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
"When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey
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I don't know what $9/hr gets you in Italy, but that just above the minimum legal wage in many parts of the US (soon it will below it). It's considered a status of "working poor".
You'd actually do better, starting salary, at a grocery chain like Trader Joes, or CostCo.
Say - you're in the Euro Zone - why not migrate to where they'll pay you enough to live on?
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It grants me a wage just above the average worker, I get 1300 €/month instead of the average 900-1000. It's just enough to maintain two people, having found an EXTREMELY convenient rent (about half the average with a bigger house... plain luck) and having already a car (which is a 17 years old econonmy car) and have 200 € / month left.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Say - you're in the Euro Zone - why not migrate to where they'll pay you enough to live on?
Easier said than done, EU countries are starting to blockade the influx of Italian technicians because we accept lower salaries than our counterparts. It's fairly tough to find jobs in other countries, and I'm not fond of the idea of moving before having found a job, like many people of my age - I saw many of them returning home with nothing there and nothing here.
When my girlfriend will graduate and hopefully find a job we'll breath much better. Anyway mine is the kind of lucky situation in Italy, at least I am hired (will be on January 7th) and not contract working for 3 month a time - which requires opening an individual company and costs roughly 60% of the revenues in taxes.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
"When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey
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Plenty of jobs in UK and Ireland in IT, unless your english is very bad you wouldn't have a problem finding a job in these countries.
I live in Dublin and I can ensure you that it's easy for a software developer to find a job here, there is a big lack of software developers. Local recruitment agencies are even organising events in other countries such as Portugal, Spain, Italy etc trying to attract talented professionals.
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When I make comparison within my surroundings and circumstances my nominal salary is average and should be enough, but when I add unpaid overtimes, consulting after hours and occasional emotional drainage I feel I am underpaid.
When I make comparison with average salaries for my position in developed (Western) countries, conclusion is that I work for peanuts.
Mislim, dakle jeo sam.
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Enough said.
Jokes aside, given my circumstances... Working without any formal qualification, I would say that I don't have anything to complain about.
But is it enough... not really. Life is expensive, and I live my life according to what I earn. Currently I don't earn enough for having children and buying a house. In two years time it might be different.
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence."
<< please vote!! >></div>
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Exactly the point I wanted to bring across!
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence."
<< please vote!! >></div>
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R. Erasmus wrote: Working without any formal qualification, I would say that I don't have anything to complain about.
I say formal education has little to do with it!
It's what you're worth to the business that counts.
If you get things done and your code is reasonably elegant and maintainable you're already doing more than a lot of 'formal qualifications' I know!
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