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Its a little late to be undemocratic now so we'll use what we've got and eventually I think other, more relevent projects will surface.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I know you and Anders are somewhat enthusiastic, and since you aren't challenged I can start indoctrinating expressing to you the method to my madness.
Mmmmm, Marc beat me to it, I'm starting to feel assimilated 
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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First person to take my picture and morph me into a Borg gets a lollypop.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Hmmm.
A couple thoughts--
I'd rather have the team establishment phase occur next, because I'd like to be able to interact with the team members on writing the draft project abstract. Otherwise, I'll just point everyone to the AAL, since I have no idea what anyone wants to do (and I know there are ideas out there!). Plus, if I can limit the interaction with the people interested in this project, it would make my life easier.
A personal symmantic issue, but "project design/definition" is never complete, even after everyone has taken the taxi home. I may be totally off base here, and tell me if I am, but in a loosely knit organization like this, I think the design/definition needs to remain as flexible as possible during the development. And besides, I certainly can't think of enough design/definition stuff up front, and if I do, it'll probably be wrong anyways. So flexibility is the key (gee, I sound like an Agile programmer).
One last comment, which might be looking at the leaves instead of the tree, not to mention the forest. Some people (like me!) have some pretty wierd ideas, so somewhere in this process there needs to be prototype development/evaluation to test out some of these whacky ideas. Just a thought, but it goes along the same lines as needing a flexible design/definition.
BTW, this also represents my style of self-management/leadership, which would reflect in how I would manage a team. So if anyone doesn't like what I've said here, vote me down or bail on my project or suggest some alternatives.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I'd rather have the team establishment phase occur next, because I'd like to be able to interact with the team members on writing the draft project abstract.
True, but I think you would attract more members with a draft abstract of the project. I was thinking you could ask for ideas here and submit your drafts here also. Once your abstract (not too specific) is ready, we can start up an article series and take membership requests through the messaging system.
I have an article series draft that contains a Project Management sub-article where team members will be listed with their code assignments. I envisioned requests to join would come in through the article message system on this sub-article.
Marc Clifton wrote:
A personal symmantic issue, but "project design/definition" is never complete, even after everyone has taken the taxi home. I may be totally off base here, and tell me if I am, but in a loosely knit organization like this, I think the design/definition needs to remain as flexible as possible during the development.
Yes, but too much flexibility will delay things. I'm not talking about etching the design in stone, but there needs to be a beginning and an ending to the "concentrated" design phase, otherwise you won't start on the project. Catch my drift?
Marc Clifton wrote:
somewhere in this process there needs to be prototype development/evaluation to test out some of these whacky ideas
I also forsee a Source Management sub-article which one person will maintain (source manager?) You can run QA and demos through here. Updating articles is quite easy here on CP (as long as they aren't edited) so we should be able to change things around during the process.
Other topics:
Would you mind me being a coordinator of the projects or would you rather be independent after things get started? I wouldn't have my fingers in everything, I would just give advice for the overal process, see if things are running smoothly, so to speak. I don't know if I'll actually join a project or not since I won't have much coding time after work in a few months (wife is 5 mos. pregnant).
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
True, but I think you would attract more members with a draft abstract of the project. I was thinking you could ask for ideas here and submit your drafts here also. Once your abstract (not too specific) is ready, we can start up an article series and take membership requests through the messaging system.
OK, that's reasonable. I'm still concerned about people putting in ideas that don't actually intend on participating in the project. A double-edged sword. But let's see how it goes.
Jason Henderson wrote:
Catch my drift?
Ah yes. It is definitely important to have a defined "concentrated" design phase, as you put it. That makes things clearer.
Jason Henderson wrote:
Would you mind me being a coordinator of the projects or would you rather be independent after things get started?
Hmmm. That might be a bit more than I'm willing to bite off. I think that would be a good thing to delegate to someone else.
Jason Henderson wrote:
wife is 5 mos. pregnant
Congrats to both of you! You're first child? (somewhere in the back of my mind I think you told me once, I just don't remember!)
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
OK, that's reasonable. I'm still concerned about people putting in ideas that don't actually intend on participating in the project. A double-edged sword. But let's see how it goes.
Ignore them.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Would you mind me being a coordinator of the projects or would you rather be independent after things get started?
Hmmm. That might be a bit more than I'm willing to bite off. I think that would be a good thing to delegate to someone else.
I asked if you would mind ME being coordinator, but if you want someone else to do it that's fine.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Congrats to both of you! You're first child?
Thanks!
Second. We have a 2 year old boy.
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I asked if you would mind ME being coordinator
Down ego, Down!
No, of course I don't mind you being the coordinator. Sorry for the misread there!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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If at any time my ego gets to be too much, just smacl me down a notch.
I try to remain humble, but when you look as good as I do, its hard sometimes.  
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I asked if you would mind ME being coordinator, but if you want someone else to do it that's fine
IMHO you would be a good person for that
- Anders
Money talks, but all mine ever says is "Goodbye!"
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Jason Henderson wrote:
I asked if you would mind ME being coordinator, but if you want someone else to do it that's fine.
I think you'd do really well at it.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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I suggest you be flexible whenever an area is first discussed, and then edge us into whatever seems like the best idea in that area.
Marc Clifton wrote:
, I'll just point everyone to the AAL, since I have no idea what anyone wants to do (and I know there are ideas out there!).
I have plenty of ideas myself, but I'm certainly open to discussion, just like you are.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Some people (like me!) have some pretty wierd ideas, so somewhere in this process there needs to be prototype development/evaluation to test out some of these whacky ideas. Just a thought, but it goes along the same lines as needing a flexible design/definition.
Wacky ideas can sometimes be the seeds of wonderful things, but, yes, testing & open discussion is what refines the stubble out of the gold.
Marc Clifton wrote:
A personal symmantic issue, but "project design/definition" is never complete, even after everyone has taken the taxi home. I may be totally off base here, and tell me if I am, but in a loosely knit organization like this, I think the design/definition needs to remain as flexible as possible during the development. And besides, I certainly can't think of enough design/definition stuff up front, and if I do, it'll probably be wrong anyways. So flexibility is the key (gee, I sound like an Agile programmer).
For one thing, stick to the standard MS coding guidelines. Also, if something is not going to cause chaos, it can be flexible, but if it will cause chaos, a standard must be agreed upon. For instance, variable name conventions are important, but it's not such a big deal whether people use C-style or C++ -style braces.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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OK, the following is all pretty much in fun, and I hope you'll take it that way!
jdunlap wrote:
the stubble out of the gold
That's a new one! I've heard "diamond in the rough" and "wheat from chaff", but this sounds like I should be saving the stuff that falls into the sink from shaving!
jdunlap wrote:
For one thing, stick to the standard MS coding guidelines
Do WHAT? Conform??? And to Microsoft!?!?! I didn't get all those votes for conformity, you know! Care to point me to a link? I haven't a clue what the MS coding guidelines are (and maybe I don't want to know!)
jdunlap wrote:
if something is not going to cause chaos, it can be flexible, but if it will cause chaos, a standard must be agreed upon
Oh, I certainly agree. Experience has taught me though that chaos exists on both sides of the path--an inflexible design causes as much chaos as a too-flexible one.
jdunlap wrote:
For instance, variable name conventions are important, but it's not such a big deal whether people use C-style or C++ -style braces.
Huh! I personally have less interest in variable name conventions and more interest in a common brace style. I LOATH this:
for (int i=0; i<10; i++) {
blah blah blah
}
Quick. Where's the nearest freeware code formatter?
 ;);P      ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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Marc Clifton wrote:
jdunlap wrote:
the stubble out of the gold
That's a new one! I've heard "diamond in the rough" and "wheat from chaff", but this sounds like I should be saving the stuff that falls into the sink from shaving!
I knew I'd get it for that one!
Marc Clifton wrote:
Oh, I certainly agree. Experience has taught me though that chaos exists on both sides of the path--an inflexible design causes as much chaos as a too-flexible one.
Exactly.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I LOATH this:
for (int i=0; i<10; i++) {
blah blah blah
}
As do I. I always like to do it like this (C-style):
for (int i=0; i<10; i++)
{
blah blah blah
}
But IMHO there's too many more important things to be fussing over.
Marc Clifton wrote:
o WHAT? Conform??? And to Microsoft!?!?! I didn't get all those votes for conformity, you know! Care to point me to a link? I haven't a clue what the MS coding guidelines are (and maybe I don't want to know!)
Well y'know, "WidgetCollection" instead of "colWidgets", and stuff like that.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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Marc Clifton wrote:
for (int i=0; i<10; i++) { blah blah blah }
for (int i=0; i<10; i++)
{
blah
}
is the only way to go
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Quick. Where's the nearest freeware code formatter?
Great idea! Wait, that phase is over.
--
"The money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its rule by preying upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is concentrated in a few hands and the Republic destroyed."
-- Abraham Lincoln
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Jason Henderson wrote:
CP2 appears to be dying before it even starts if I interpret correctly the lack of enthusiasm lately. Let's hope that is not the case. Anyway...
Well, I lost almost all my interest on it, and I hope that my critics below will be interpreted as suggestions for improvement, although I only point what I consider errors, not provide solutions.
1. The winning projects were:
a. Yet another UI library. Even taking in account its cool name (I love it, BTW), how much interest will this raise?
b. Yet another bug tracking tool. Do we need one?
c. Yet another Application Framework. As much as I like the great Marc’s articles about AAL, I doubt there will be lots of people interested on working on this project, because I believe that only experience programmers appreciate the real beauty of AA. Most programmers will stay with the “big guys” frameworks.
400,000 people and all we got was this?? Come on, people, I know that we are much better than this!
2. This is all going too fast. About a week or two ago, no one have ever heard of CP2. Now, luckily, 1% or 2% of all CPians have heard of it. The symptoms: only 30 or so people bothered to vote on the winning project. A mouse click. How many people will want to put hard work on it?
Kant wrote:
Actually she replied back to me "You shouldn't fix the bug. You should kill it"
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I tend to agree with your criticisms, and yet I'm really surprised at the three project winners. Certainly not my first three choices. But I'm certainly willing to participate, at a minimum for the learning experience.
Daniel Turini wrote:
As much as I like the great Marc’s articles about AAL, I doubt there will be lots of people interested on working on this project
For the record (which I stated somewhere else a bit more obtusely), I definitely wasn't planning on ramming this down anyone's throat. On the contrary--I wanted to gather ideas from the team members and let the concept have a life of its own, separate from the AAL. Personally, I'd prefer to keep the AAL itself under my sole development direction for the time being, although I would have no problems with people pillaging ideas and code from it.
Daniel Turini wrote:
This is all going too fast.
Perhaps. There seemed to be a lot of enthusiasm, and you got to go with that. It may also have to do with moving off of the lounge, where things are a lot more visible.
I too am very curious about the perceived lack of interest. Maybe everyone is just trying to get some work done today. I know I sure as heck am!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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1) What project idea were you interested in?
2) Too slow = no interest. Look at the outline i provided and tell me its not a going to take a while to even get started.
If it comes down to 10 people per project, then it will be more easily managed than 20 or 30. Anyway, if one project dies, maybe we can start one up that's better and hopefully learn from our mistakes.
thanks for the critique
Jason Henderson My articles
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill
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Jason Henderson wrote:
What project idea were you interested in?
Actually, anything that hasn't being done before. It doesn't matter if it is an AI project, a game, a P2P, anything that doesn't reinvent the wheel, unless you are about to create the ultimate wheel. Everytime I see another UI library, I question myself, trying to understand the people who are writing it: do they really need another UI library, or is it just a waste of effort?
That's why I mentioned AAL on my original post: on the three winning projects, it's where you can create some really new things.
Kant wrote:
Actually she replied back to me "You shouldn't fix the bug. You should kill it"
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What I'm most interested in for a UI library is the unusual controls/components. 
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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jdunlap wrote:
What I'm most interested in for a UI library is the unusual controls/components.
I've been looking for some innovation in this area for quite a while now. Sadly, I can't think of any good ideas myself! I wonder if I'll still be alive when true 3D displays are created. I think 90% of the problem is that there's only so much you can do in 2D. And personally, I don't buy into skins. It's like when my girlfriend gets a haircut. For a short while, it's like sleeping with a different woman.
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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scrollable viewport
monthview
ruler
commandbar
treelistview (DONE)
listbar (outlook-style) (DONE)
toolbox listbar (DONE)
clock (DONE)
dial
range picker (been done, but not to my satisfaction)
skinnable popup - for balloons, etc.
data navbar (been done, but not to my satisfaction)
collapsible panel (DONE)
color picker bar - functionality is like scrollbar
color palette
color picker gradient - round, square, etc
auto-complete textbox (DONE?)
image-calendar
time-scheduler (DONE?)
topiclist
imagelistview
appbar
wizard ctl
advanced message box
analog meter control (been done, but not to my satisfaction)
peak-meter
number ticker (like odometer) (DONE?)
colorcombo
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." - Jesus
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Mahatma Gandhi
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Cool! Some interesting things in there!
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"
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To be honest, i don't expect most of these first projects to be terribly adventurous, or to run strong all that long (though hopefully they will run long enough to produce some useful stuff). They will, however, pave the way for more exciting projects later on...
I'm eagerly awaiting the completion of all this housekeeping work, so the team(s) can get down to some serious discussions and design work. For my part, i'd love to see a UI library (or app framework) build on something already available, such as WTL or VCF - filling in the cracks, so to speak, and fleshing them out.
The advantage of a library, after all, is that it reduces or eliminates the integration cost otherwise associated with working someone else's code into your app. Rather than spending time trying to decide which of the grid/menu/tooltip classes out there you should use, you go with the one that's already been tested and integrated with the rest of your GUI.
Not too extreme, no, but something that wouldn't hurt either, given the number of free controls, etc. on CP.
Shog9
So much he don't understand,
Just might never make it to a man...
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