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Kirk 10389821 wrote: I am curious about feedback to this line of thinking?
Seems reasonable except that your forgot the part where the director of the play is going to want to hear the music before the curtain goes up the first night. And probably make changes.
Not to mention that if the director changes the play then they must tell the composer about that.
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i think it is a poor analogy because the musical score isn't packaged, its suitability is a personal thing (one man's meat and all that).
I, too use the building analogy often - it is something concrete (intended) that people can get their heads around and understand that building a basement carpark after the 6th story is added might be more expensive than starting off with it!
If it is an off-the-shelf package you could use off-the-peg clothing - you moight know of a marvellous suit brand that would suit (intended) the guy perfectly - but if you don't know he's got one leg, has just lost 40kg after being ill and has a colostomy bag, the tailoring requirements will outweigh the costs of the suit.
similarly, with a bespoke suit, as the customer you'd kinda want to be measured first - and if you intend to wear it to the office you might get a different suit than if you wanted to wear it while windsurfing.
Also with clothing you can discuss that, while the look is really up to the client (although your experienced eye can make recommendations), the fit and functionality needs to be designed in.
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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Again, I usually use the building metaphors.
But I have to say, clothing metaphors are attractive (pun intended).
Interesting. I have to think about that a bit, but It is much easier than Music Score, and different enough from Building, that it fits (not intended) the idea, especially comparing existing products to each other. (you can use this open source, and custom tailor it, SAP and continuously discover new clothing/seasonal lines that have to be fitted, ...)
Worth posting the question just to get this...
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: Worth posting the question just to get this
Thanks!
Need to look around the room first in case someone is already wearing your example
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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From experience, especially with SMEs, the play/music score example is not going to make much impact, most of them have not seen or thought about a play since primary school!
Stick with the building, ALL of them understand a building they are sitting in one and use one every day.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: I usually use hiring an architect to design a new building.
I do the same. I try to get across to them that while software is flexible, after a while it can take on the consistency of cement.
I use examples like, "Don't tell me you want a wet bar on the other side of the room after I've laid the concrete slab floor."
But then, before being seduced by the Dark Side of Programmingtm, I was studying to be an architect.
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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I don't know about anybody else, but I can't really relate to the problems of the music composer. It sounds like an OK analogy, but since I can't relate to it, it isn't very good at influencing me. This suggests that you need to pick an analogy that relates to the lives of the people you're trying to explain things to.
Yeah, it'd be nice if they'd be able to understand our world, but they aren't capable of doing that, so you need to understand their world enough to translate it into their terms for them. Just, beware of the concrete-only thinkers -- an analogy expects them to be able to grasp the abstraction, and there are people out there that are not only not smart enough to understand our world, but they can't even understand abstractions either.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Kirk 10389821 wrote: Musicians should read/watch the play?
Should understand the meaning of the "Parts"?
Should know the entire story?
Should have a clue where the sequel might go?
no. as a professional musician i can tell you that i and my colleagues often play music (including musical theatre and opera) without having done or knowing any of the above. sorry. it might work for some but don't try that analogy with a musician.
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I find it interesting to throw out all of it because sometimes you dont.
But let me rephrase it for you.
If your friend has just written a play that will certainly make Broadway...
You would recommend just jamming out as the play goes along???
I am not talking just making music or a score. I am talking about trying to obtain the synergy that a musical score gives a Play, or a Movie...
While there is a lot of flexibility (as there are with choices in software), it would seem that for a Professional Production, you would would know.
Les Miserables to the tune of a Circus, repetitively would, in fact, ruin the play IMHO!
==
I see the similarities. I loved the discussion that came.
In the end, as a better alternative analogy, I now prefer the Tailored Suit Analogy.
Off the shelf + Customizations, Hand Made (roll your own), SAP (Buying the entire
product line, and tailoring for each area as a person, plus seasons, etc).
It is easy to have SAP taste, but hard to do on a JC Penny off the shelf price!
Definitely not on a Marshalls buyer beware budget. But that is what your choices
are (more or less).
In essence, you have to choose what is important. Getting EXACTLY what you want,
or getting a well fitting, well wearing suit. And what are you willing to invest.
Just saying: Fast. Cheap. Right. Choose 2, seems a little flippant. We have to educate
our clients as to what we do. What our role is.
Maybe you guys can create a musical score on the fly, as great as the music that is
more painstakingly developed. But can you do it every time? In the same manner. And,
does the client have the corresponding sheet music to have others play it as it moves around,
or is replicated elsewhere?
Again, I think it is moot now. It is comparable, at some level, to attempting to create music.
But it is harder to explain than the clothing metaphor is.
Thanks...
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yes, it's harder to explain.
Kirk 10389821 wrote: You would recommend just jamming out as the play goes along???
i see what you mean. i would not recommend this. and this is where terms and ideas often get mixed up. you were originally talking about (or meant) the composing of music but we both started talking about "the musicians":
Kirk 10389821 wrote:
Musicians should read/watch the play?
Should understand the meaning of the "Parts"?
Should know the entire story?
Should have a clue where the sequel might go?
change that to:
Composers should read/watch the play?
Should understand the meaning of the "Parts"?
Should know the entire story?
Should have a clue where the sequel might go?
and it works.
it might seem like a little difference but it's a actually a big thing. cheers.
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I would gladly compare a musical piece with a piece of software since people who actually create software and music are both artists.
Since I have the (bad) luck of being a software developer and a musician for many years I have found so many similarities between those two that in my opinion there is a very thin line that distinguishes them.
Let's see:
1) They are both underpaid.
2) they work long hours without any kind of recognition.
3) They may be self taught.
4) Artists are born not made.
5) It takes at least 10 years of study and practice to be considered experienced.
6) Good pieces of software and good pieces of music take years to create.
7) They both have to be constantly practicing new techniques ( technologies ).
8) There are "Mozarts" in programming and music.
9) They both should practice their arts as a hobby and not as a job.
10) Comparing a Piano player to a DJ ( RAD ) is like comparing a C Programmer to C# or Java Developer ( they are both musicians, but the piano player will always be the true artist ).
11) They both need stimuli and inspiration to work. Finding yourself idle in front of a monitor for many hours or days is called lack of inspiration ( and then suddenly estrus comes ).
12) Ask one million of programmers to write a software about something and then ask one million of musicians to write a song about something. You will get a million of different "scores".
13) A BA is a Director, a software architect is a conductor and a programmer is a musician.
14) Programming and performing music enhances Divergent thinking ( they don't give drums and guitars to CS students in campuses just for fun ).
And last but not least...
15) they fall in love with the wrong women.
And now let's do some replacements:
Don't you think, before the Music is written, that the Musicians should read/watch the play?
Don't you think, before the Music Software is written, that the Programmers should read/watch the play BA Document?
Should understand the meaning of the "Parts"?
Should understand the meaning of the "Parts" Business Processes?
Should know the entire story?
Should know the entire story Workflow?
Should have a clue where the sequel might go?
Should have a clue where the sequel next version might go?
Yes I do think so.
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I just realized that my brain is going badly...
After one year of development of web/Node apps, I'm going to think in a loosely/anarchy-way than my usual German-like/obsessive/strong-way.
Anyone knows a good recreation/detox place to wash my brain off any JavaScript trace, and restore the faithful C# mentality?
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Visual Basic 6.0 ...
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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To paraphrase John;
“VB6 is no more. VB6 has ceased to be. VB6 expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late language. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't booted into that old VM, it would not run nor install. It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-language.”
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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I forgot to add the joke icon, for which I am sorry.
And believe it or not, those who pay my salary still occasionally have me write programs in VB6 by request from our customers. I don't question their sanity. Truth be told I'm not afraid to code in VB6. 
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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S Houghtelin wrote: I don't question their sanity.
I do, and their ownership of a valid license for the IDE.
S Houghtelin wrote: Truth be told I'm not afraid to code in VB6.
Believe it or not, I enjoyed the langauge at one point. I also loved doing migrations; mixing languages is educative.
..but for anyone who is spending money on VB6 now: you don't bring out a new hollywoodmovie on a betamax video.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: I do, and their ownership of a valid license for the IDE.
The license as far as I know didn't expire when MS decided to stop supporting VB6, it was valid when it was purchased through our MSDN account all those years ago. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think we are required to buy a new license for every project we code.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: ..but for anyone who is spending money on VB6 now: you don't bring out a new hollywoodmovie on a betamax video.
I've tried to extoll the virtues of using current languages on current technology, but when the customer only has Betamax machines, they want Betamax videotapes. If you don't have them, they will go to someone who has Betamax tapes and spend their money there.
VB6 is a dead language, I understand this... and I have migrated a few to C#, VB.NET and even to objective C. I think we are arguing the same point, I'm not saying VB6 is all that, I am saying I like getting paid. If it involves occasionally doing things in a manner I don't necessarily agree with I'll do it.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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S Houghtelin wrote: I don't think we are required to buy a new license for every project we code.
No, you're not; is it still available on MSDN for download? 
S Houghtelin wrote: they will go to someone who has Betamax tapes and spend their money there.
Sometimes I forget I have the luxury to be picky. I will not sell cars with deprecated parts; even if the customer is paying, he is also paying for the best way to spend his money.
Which might mean that the recommendation would be to spend more on hardware, or sign a contract to take liability for all the risks involved in using outdated technology
..and sorry for ruining the joke by taking the topic seriously
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Sometimes I forget I have the luxury to be picky. I will not sell cars with deprecated parts; even if the customer is paying, he is also paying for the best way to spend his money.
Which might mean that the recommendation would be to spend more on hardware, or sign a contract to take liability for all the risks involved in using outdated technology
I don't negotiate the deals, I just get the assignment and do the dirty work.
Have a good weekend.
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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S Houghtelin wrote: the dirty work.
Might be the name of another new best seller 
S Houghtelin wrote: Have a good weekend.
Tx, wish you the same
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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As other users, I really can't spit over VB6. Such a evil-machine payed my bills for over a decade, and STILL I'm using it because all the apps "spread" over time.
VB6 is not something toxic: I'd say something "sticky" instead. Your greatest effort is take it off your programmer life...
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Mario Vernari wrote: VB6 is not something toxic: I'd say something "sticky" instead.
A great way to put it, agree 100% 
It was broke, so I fixed it.
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Have you tried going back to an old Restore Point? 
How do we preserve the wisdom men will need,
when their violent passions are spent?
- The Lost Horizon
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Develop apps for home written in C# using German as the basis for all naming conventions.
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Just Do It.
Read some of your older C# code.
Find one change you would like to make.
Make it.
I have to change gears like this a lot. You get used to it.
It is like talking Politics, and then switching to Religion at a party ))
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