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I learned that lesson the hard way and I truly believe you're right about agendas. Many lessons learned.
I will look into Glenn Brooke from that link you have posted.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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Agreed on getting a mentor who is not your supervisor.
Is there someone in the business who you can see has the skills you want, could you approach them as a mentor? Also does your company have a concept of 'practice' versus reporting structure so, in your example, perhaps a team leader community of practice or a practice lead where you can get help?
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Clark Kent123 wrote: I was demoted from my leadership position within the website team
1. Did they appoint someone more experienced in that position? If so, somewhat OK. That someone, if you feel has strengths you lack, is a person you can learn from.
2. On the other hand, if they have appointed someone junior to you**, you need to you what deficiency they found in you, which that person fulfilled; is that justified? And, need to go back to your objective settings, and ask your management which specific objectives/measurables were not met, with data. Not on a confrontational note, but more for clarification (with the purpose of not repeating this).
As someone has said, imagining oneself positioned on a vertically oriented spiral, there are two ways of seeing. If you look downwards, you'll slide further down; if you look upwards, you'll get inspired to climb up.
IMHO, no need to put away your dream; this is not the end of your career, isn't it? As a leader, you'll surely have much brighter days ahead.
** Has happened to me in the past, just because that person had a degree from the US, whereas all my education has been in India.
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The questions you have asked are very probing and enlightening. These are things that I have and will always consider. To look at oneself as objectively as possible in order to learn to grow. I know I have much to learn, but I am still eager to try again.
Quote: As someone has said, imagining oneself positioned on a vertically oriented spiral, there are two ways of seeing. If you look downwards, you'll slide further down; if you look upwards, you'll get inspired to climb up.
IMHO, no need to put away your dream; this is not the end of your career, isn't it? As a leader, you'll surely have much brighter days ahead.
I appreciate that. I am now looking up at that spiral and yes I do want to climb, but I need the tools to be successful in order to climb. Thanks for your feedback.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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Leave, ASAP and move somewhere else. Sounds like you were thrust into the position with little or no experience with the HOPE that you would succeed because they needed a leader and they knew you wanted to try - a cheap and easy pick. Clearly, they do not believe that you have come close to success. You have no future there - you will always be seen as a failure by the very people that set you up to fail.
Just because you want to be a leader, does not make you one. You need to have years of experience dealing with people and projects under your belt before you can manage and direct them.
As for mentoring you, sounds like that was just "get on with it" - that isn't mentoring you, that's using you.
You were set up for failure. That's your lesson to learn.
Good luck for the future.
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Thanks for the wise words. Yes, I do feel for quite some time that I have been setup to fail. Criticism came too quickly, but constructive criticism was extremely rare. As for leaving I am currently looking for another opportunity. The working environment was not a right fit for me.
I know that wishful thinking can only take you so far, but I have to start somewhere in order to learn and this was a great learning experience of what not to do. My goal has not changed, but I do need to learn from someone who is willing to teach and give me the advice that is unbiased. To give me the advice that is best for me in order to learn.
Thanks for your feedback it is greatly appreciated.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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I have experienced the same thing recently. The one question to ask yourself is, how realistic were the demands of management?
It's one thing to get yourself mired in the swamp of getting people motivated and moving in the right direction. Been there. Keep learning, you'll get there.
It is quite another when the management team is berating you because your team can't run the 100 meter sprint in four seconds. If this is the case, run. Run fast and run far. Trust me, there are better pitches to play on.
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Karel Čapek wrote: Just because you want to be a leader, does not make you one. You need to have years of experience dealing with people and projects under your belt before you can manage and direct them.
This is very true. I was a communications officer in the US Air Force for 11 years. I was in a position where I had worked for some high-ranking officers and could have done very well (ie climbed the ranks) with them looking out for me. However, at the 11 year point I was about to be promoted to Major, which would have brought a lot of management, staff officer, squadron commander, and other leadership requirements with it. But deep-down I am a software guy and I enjoy being a software engineer. So I separated from the AF and have been a software engineering consultant to the same AF organization I was a flight commander in before separating.
One aspect of being a good leader is realizing when you're not the right person to actually be leading...
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PSU Steve wrote: One aspect of being a good leader is realizing when you're not the right person to actually be leading...
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I know how you feel. Been there done that (A few times).
I am now back in a leadership role and I am succeeding in it.
The biggest thing I have learnt through experience is, I do not need to know everything thing, I rely on my team for help and regularly ask them for help. I am happy to so say I do not know but will look into it.
There are lots of courses and books. Just keep trying and learning.
Do not give up, you will get there.
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Thanks for the words of encouragement. Despite this bitterness that I have experienced I still feel motivated to try again. But this time I do need to seek a mentor someone who is willing to tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear. Some have suggested books which I will be purchasing because this means that much to me.
Also, thanks for the advice on leveraging assistance from your team. That is indeed something I would love to experience. A team of people working together to make a product. You would think that should happen everywhere, right?
I have learned a valuable lesson from this experience and will prepare myself for the future.
Thanks again!
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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Accept the reality of what has happened and free yourself from the pain. You get knocked down, you get back up and try again. Set backs in life are to be expected. There is a time for success and a time for failure.
As far as losing the help of your mentor. You don't need him. There are plenty of good books about how to manage. I learned the basics from One-Minute Manager. Read a couple and if you don't get it, you shouldn't be managing. Encourage people, treat them as you would want to be treated. Pay attention to what they are saying. Managing is part psychology. Fix relationship problems promptly, no in-fighting. You can't change people (much). Sculpt with the clay you have been given. Don't b1tch about those that manage you. You can't change them and they don't want to have to worry about your problems, that's why you're there.
See yourself succeeding.
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Wow, great advice and straight to the point! 
I will be looking into that book that you have suggested. If there are any others that you have come across that have helped you beside the "One-Minute Manager" I would like to get my hands on those as well.
I will be taking your advice to heart and will do what I can to apply them to my strategy.
Quote: Set backs in life are to be expected. There is a time for success and a time for failure.
So true!
Thanks again for advice.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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I don't have any other recommendations for books specific to management. I'm sure there are plenty of good and bad ones out there. The One-Minute Manager is a well respected text, if you need more after that, the right book will appear.
If you want to read more about success and meeting goals, try The Power of Intention by Wayne Dyer. It's a book but also there are YouTube vids you can view from his talks on the topic. It's not everyone's cup of tea but you may like it.
Best wishes in your endeavors.
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I know how you feel. I think everyone at some point in time get things they don't see coming. In any ways, as others have said, don't give up. If you give up you will be proving your supervisor right.
Some people aren't cut for leadership, but these people often know it and don't like the position or they don't admit it and are too arrogant to realize they have to learn and that they make mistakes. I think you're in none of these positions just by how you put your situation.
Know this, with leadership, come politics. Often you will find people trying to pull the carpet under your feet. Be vigilant, but be smart. Treat everyone with good care. Be polite, be helpful, proactive and productive, even if all you want to do is tell them to go to hell. You can get in real trouble if you start stalling people that make your life difficult. It's almost like giving the other cheek, but it is worth it, specially if they are your customers (stakeholders in general). Don't be foolish though, you have to understand when to say no, but you need to really know why you're saying know and telling these reasons to the right people.
Now, you can always back where you were. Don't rush going to another job, you're closer in your current job, than in any other. Talk to your supervisor, be humble and admit your mistakes, ask for the feedback on what shortcomings you had for being demoted and let him know you will work hard to get that position back. This will demonstrate maturity required for a leader.
Learn whatever you can from your peers. What do other leaders do that make them stick with their position? Can you do something to make your leader better? Your job now is to make your leader look better, so he can say good things about you. Step out of your circle and go the extra mile of your responsibilities to help your leader with theirs. When I first got a leadership position, it didn't simply land on my lap, I earned it, I reached out of my responsibilities. Realize you're not an assembly line worker, so never act like one, by doing just what you're told.
This psychological blow will fade if don't grow too attached to it. Turn it around and use it as motivation. I hope my words sink into you and you get what you dream for. Never give up on your dreams
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Great advice. All of it really.
Quote: In any ways, as others have said, don't give up. If you give up you will be proving your supervisor right.
You're right, I am not going to allow this to hold me back, but to learn from this and grow. On a funny note I once heard that the best revenge is massive success. But that's not my motivation to succeed. Just want to be a better version of myself and I see leadership as a way to fulfill that goal.
Quote: I think you're in none of these positions just by how you put your situation.
Thanks for that.
Quote: This psychological blow will fade if don't grow too attached to it. Turn it around and use it as motivation. I hope my words sink into you and you get what you dream for. Never give up on your dreams
You're right and I don't plan on letting this blow get to me, but to learn from this. Everyone here is right that if I don't have a knack for this then I should do what's best and let someone else step up to the plate. However, I do believe I have some potential for this. As one motiviation speaker has said that there are 3 types of people in this world; winners, losers, and those who have not yet discovered how to win. I am the 3rd type. I just need to grow and learn before I try again. I like the thing that you said about being humble and making my leader look good. That will work to my benefit as well because I will be learning from their success and failures in the process. Another learning experience which I can make my own.
I will not let this get to me, but will make more of an effort to grow.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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I'm really happy you found value on what I said. All the best!
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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You can still be a leader and practice your leadership even if you're not in the "leadership position". I'm not in a leadership position, but people look to me for guidance because they know they can trust me. Seize the chances that are given to you and earn the trust back that you seem to have lost.
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So true! I do plan on learning from others even though I don't have the title of "Lead".
I can make their experiences (failure or success) my own by studying why they did what they did in the circumstances they were in.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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I am sorry to hear about your experience. However, you should be consoled to know that this experience is very common.
As one who has been in the field for over 41 years I have led a number of small and medium sized teams technically. I have also taught technology classes in corporate environments.
I am also very well experienced in the politics of business, especially in IT.
First and foremost, there is no such thing as "leadership" in the corporate environment; there is management and the two are very different animals. Leadership cannot be learned or taught as it is something that is inherent to the person; you are someone people want to follow or you are not. It is a matter of personality.
Leadership" is something where your people will stand by you no matter what. That will never happen in business unless you are extremely lucky with a very rare group of people.
When your supposed mentor turned on you and told you to get things done, this was a reflection of what he expected of you as a "manager" not a leader. This attitude is rife in the IT profession at all levels where the term "leadership" is just a term for ego-centric managers to toss about.
You want to be a leader in IT than go out and be one! Build your own company where the people you hire want to work there and work with you. Treat them as equals and fairly but keeping in mind that you are the head of the organization and it is an organization that you created not only to produce a product of quality of excellence but one in which changes the sociological dynamic where people working there can enjoy it secure in the knowledge that the organization is there to take care of them as much as they are expected to take care of it. That is leadership!
The rest is just business as usual...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Quote: However, you should be consoled to know that this experience is very common.
Wow, I didn't know that.
Quote: When your supposed mentor turned on you and told you to get things done, this was a reflection of what he expected of you as a "manager" not a leader. This attitude is rife in the IT profession at all levels where the term "leadership" is just a term for ego-centric managers to toss about.
I think your right about that. As you mentioned my view of leadership is people wanting to follow you. Maybe it's personality I don't know, but I have to take your word on it.
Quote: You want to be a leader in IT than go out and be one! Build your own company...
That's the reason why I am seeking leadership roles is I already started my own company. Well, I have purchased my own LLC 2 years back, but I want to transition from consultant to owner if you get my meaning. My goal is not seeking the title of "CEO" or something to that affect, but rather to create a community to make a product in a positive environment. I know this is possible because my previous employment did this quite well to have high morale within the company. For me this is just wishful thinking at the moment and the proof is in the pudding as the expression goes. I want to learn "leadership" from professionals so I can take what works and apply them to my business. I really do take this seriously, because this means that much to me.
I will do my best to learn the differences between managing and leadership as you have stated.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul."
-Douglas MacArthur
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A few thoughts:
* Maybe you weren't leading fast enough.
* Maybe you weren't leading in the direction your supervisor wanted the team to go.
* Maybe you weren't keeping your supervisor up to date on problems that can't be solved with "simple application of more motivation."
* Maybe your supervisor is getting heat from his/her supervisor because your team isn't delivering.
* Maybe you supervisor read an article on managing software development and is adopting a new-to-him/her management philosophy (HORROR!)
* The nature of the person who replaced you will tell you why you were demoted. If it's an outside hire, then there may be a perception that the whole project is in trouble.
* Maybe it's not about you, it's about your salary and eliminating "unnecessary" management costs. Has your supervisor been talking about LEAN management techniques lately?
Best of luck.
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It is only feedback.
This situation is akin to working on code for hours, and then compiling and finding you have some syntax errors. Or some logic bombs that need to be addressed.
If you run away from the computer because it did not do what you wanted/expected, you would fail. But we dig in, find out what happened, and fix it.
In this case, you may never lead at this company again. But it does not sound like you were completely ready. I usually end up leading in a lot of positions as it is my nature to lead. When I have no idea what to do, I gladly follow.
In your case, I would recommend reviewing your skill set at leading. And reviewing the books on management and leading others that you found valuable. I recommend these two books a lot.
- One Minute Manager (my first book on how to manage people, and how NOT to manage people)
- Execution by Larry Bossidy (A book about getting things done)
For me, leading is about:
- People
- Environment
- Goals
People always come first. Goals often come from outside, and the environment is all you can control. Create the right environment that encourages, rewards and drives the people (happily) towards the goals...
With that said. I feel you have to EARN a leadership position.
Don't just look for mentors... Become a mentor! I always take the time to mentor others,
it makes me better. It reminds me where people are at, and to keep people first.
Good Luck!
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I wouldn't give up on your goal, but I would take some time to watch others that are successful in that leadership role and understand where you went wrong. You won't get a second chance under that supervisor, so if you decide to pursue your leadership goal, it's time to move on. Besides, you might end up working for someone who is interested in mentoring you into the position.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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I always spend time in reflection when I am demoted or let go. (Yeah, it happens over a long career). It is feedback on my performance that cannot be denied. I look for root causes. Guess it's the geek in me. You're doing well to take a little time out to think.
There are senior managers who manage by wishing. They put a line manager in charge of a team and expect that team to perform. If they expect performance to a fixed deadline and don't want to hear about scope-creep, discovered work, etc., they are managing by wish. If the line manager is not in a position to grant their wishes, they replace them, because you have to kiss a whole lot of frogs if you expect one to magically turn into a prince.
In my darker days, I refer to this as the "Darth Vader School of Management" after the way Mr Vader promotes his admirals, by crushing the windpipe of the former admiral and casting his lifeless body aside, then pointing a gauntleted hand at another and saying "Congratulations on your promotion...Admiral".
We learn more by failure than by success. You can probably think of things you should have done differently. Do these things next time. One additional question to ask yourself is, were you happy in your leadership role? If you were, then it's worth trying to get another lead role. If not, then why are you wasting your time? You escaaped. Celebrate.
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