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StatementTerminator wrote: If you want to do something about it, lobby for unionization and fair labor laws, that's the real problem.
I disagree; get rid of the specific concept of "labor laws" altogether because they're already covered by contract law. The only thing that "labor laws" do currently is provide structure to sloppy arrangements where a worker signs to an open contract and then complains about the terms that he ends up signing up for. An open contract makes you a vassal.
"Labor" is fundamentally indiscernible from any product supplied on the market. You are supplying a product (your skill) to a buyer (the company) under specific terms. It is your responsibility to create terms in your favor and it is their responsibility to create terms in their favor.
If either party violates those terms, you have a tortious breach of contract to address with the other party or take to arbitration. There's really no need for any special rules that would not also apply to selling something out of your garage at a garage sale or buying a refrigerator from a store; they are all the same thing.
StatementTerminator wrote: We're being exploited, many of us,
If you voluntarily agree to do something, it's illogical to claim exploitation; you chose it voluntarily because it was your best available option, did you not? I think I understand what you're saying, but I take issue with the word "exploited."
StatementTerminator wrote: Expecting people to put their jobs on the line in the hopes that wages will go up and you'll get paid more for fewer hours is total fantasy.
Why would anyone arrange their affairs in a way in which they become dependent on a single "employer?" The price you can command is directly related to your second best option on the market, because the "best option" merely has to provide a modicum above that to price the second option out. That is what determines the price you can command, so you should always be investigating what other people are willing to pay for your service. If you are selling under market, raise your price! The only input a company has into what I earn is to say "yes, I'll pay that for your services" or "no, that's too steep for my budget." They don't get to tell me what I make; they only get to tell me what they're willing to pay.
"Increasing price while decreasing output" is known as a monopolistic action, and nice work if you can get it.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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Alaric_ wrote: If you voluntarily agree to do something, it's illogical to claim exploitation
No, exploitation is "voluntary," otherwise it's slavery.
Alaric_ wrote: If either party violates those terms, you have a tortious breach of contract to address with the other party or take to arbitration.
Um, not where I live, I don't think you understand how employment works in the South. You don't get to negotiate a contract for a permanent salaried position, you only negotiate pay, and your employer can reduce your pay at any time for any reason. Your choice is to do whatever your employer wants or take a walk, you can't sue except in cases of discrimination or other violations of federal law. Where do you live, where you can force your employer into arbitration if you don't like what you're asked to do?
Alaric_ wrote: Why would anyone arrange their affairs in a way in which they become dependent on a single "employer?"
Who says I did that? I left that job for a better one. Same lack of legal protections, though. Your concept of contract laws covering employment is strange to me, there's no binding contract in at-will employment, and that's very deliberate.
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StatementTerminator wrote: No, exploitation is "voluntary," otherwise it's slavery.
Then we're arguing semantics; it makes no sense to me to bundle "exploitation" with voluntary agreements because if you are agreeing to something voluntarily that you consider exploitative, you are agreeing to be "exploited" which means you are not being exploited.
StatementTerminator wrote: I don't think you understand how employment works in the South. You don't get to negotiate a contract for a permanent salaried position, you only negotiate pay, and your employer can reduce your pay at any time for any reason.
I do understand; I work in an At-Will employment state, but my labor is protected by contracts. It's a pain in the ass to deal with disputes, but that's a cost of doing business with untrustworthy customers...and why I make sure I have a contract.
StatementTerminator wrote: Where do you live, where you can force your employer into arbitration if you don't like what you're asked to do?
That's my point. I don't have an "employer." I think the concept of the "employer" needs to be abolished. There's really nothing special about the arrangement. As I said before, you present a service to the market (your labor) and a customer buys your service (the company). Labor is just a part of their production schedule and their capital structure. Sure, they want it to be treated differently, in their favor, but that's where getting the State out of the business of granting favors to their buddies comes into play...but that's getting into Anarcho-Capitalism and a completely different can of worms.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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I cannot blame a victim in a situation where there is none. You made a choice, and now to cope with your choices and the damage they caused you are trying to convince others that doing something like what you did is justified somehow. The parallels to hazing psychology are striking.
Please try to bear in mind I have done the same, I am not judging you.
You have rights. You can say no. Nobody forced you or took advantage of you. This is self inflicted damage my friend. You speak of responsibility while simultaneously refusing to accept it where it matters most. The most important question to ask is "What could I have done differently?". I suggest reading around emotional intelligence.
FWIW I live in a right to work state as well - in the Midwest, and I like the south... good bourbon for one. I will move, change jobs, leave the country, etc before I ever accept unionization - I would fight it first of course. Unlike southerners those of us in the Midwest have witnessed first hand the undesirable effects unions have on an industry/economy. My home city is almost dead at this point and unions played a big role in that. If you wont take my word take the word of the voters of Michigan who just turned that state into a right to work state.
A much better and free market solution to the wage/working conditions issue is to end the abuse of H1-B and similar programs.
Lawsuits are a cost of doing business. If you cannot deal with being sued you should not be in business in the US. I am not gonna defend this; just stating reality.
You offer up that they fired the sales guy anyway as some sort of defense. I could argue that the more responsible approach is to manage the situation, NOT take actions that end up with the company losing two valuable employees. Maybe if thing were managed properly you would both still be working there happily to this day, but we will never know. Having the character to tell people when they are wrong/screwed up is valuable and factors into your net worth.
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Rowdy Raider wrote: You offer up that they fired the sales guy anyway as some sort of defense. I could argue that the more responsible approach is to manage the situation, NOT take actions that end up with the company losing two valuable employees.
It wasn't a defense, nor did I have anything to do with it, are you seriously blaming me for his firing? I took actions to cause that how?
You keep saying that I handled it irresponsibly and should have done something different. Like what? Complain? Management knew the situation, they weren't happy about it either, but if they didn't meet deadline they might have had a hard time making payroll, and then layoffs, it had happened before. Would that have been responsible?
So what was I supposed to do, in your opinion? Would walking out have been a responsible thing to do, leaving them high-and-dry and leaving me in a position where I had no job and an uphill battle to get a new one? It's a bit hard to explain that in a job interview. Walking out seems like it would have been irresponsible to both my employer and myself.
I didn't take actions that caused the loss of two employees, don't hang that on me. What exactly do you think I should have done? Please tell me what you mean by "manage the situation." I wasn't in control of anything other than doing the job or walking out.
Rowdy Raider wrote: You speak of responsibility while simultaneously refusing to accept it where it matters most.
How did I refuse to take responsibility? From my point of view I did the responsible thing, I did what had to be done and then left when I had another job lined up. In what way did I refuse to take responsibility? Should I have said "oh well, my fault for taking this job, I'll just stay here," or "I shouldn't have taken this job, I'm walking out right now?"
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Ah... see I have helped you down the road to recovery, now you have moved on from denial to anger. I cannot give you the answers you need to find them on your own.
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That's a cop-out, and an arrogant one.
You need to explain exactly what you mean, or you are just blowing hot air. You keep talking about how I handled things the wrong way, and then refuse to say what I should have done differently. You keep saying that I acted irresponsibly, and then refuse to say what a responsible course of action would have been. Unless you can explain what you think I should have done differently, I'm going to have to assume that you're just concern trolling.
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Not liking what I say doesn't mean it is trolling. Not giving you answers isn't a cop out.
I was trying to bow out of this conversation, but insinuations of trolling should not be ignored. I saw Alaric_ jumping in as well and primarily I am concerned that he and I do not start to triangulate on you.
I never said nor implied nor insinuated you are irresponsible go reread.
Expecting me to provide you detailed answers as to how you should have handled a difficult situation long since passed is not realistic nor fair to me.
Here is what you need to digest. The answers to your questions do not matter. Asking them and considering he possibilities is where the growth lies. A lot of these kinds of things do not have a right answer now or then - how could I give you one?
If you want to have a philosophical conversation I can indulge. But I wont go for further insinuations.
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Rowdy Raider wrote: I never said nor implied nor insinuated you are irresponsible go reread.
You need to take a deep breath and go back and read what you said. You did imply that I acted irresponsibly, you accused me of causing a co-worker to get fired because I didn't handle things properly (without saying what I should have done), and you only offer up advice along the lines of "go read up on emotional intelligence."
Regardless of what you intended, you were being insulting and arrogant. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I think it's a bit ironic that you are refusing to take responsibility for what you said.
Rowdy Raider wrote: I could argue that the more responsible approach is to manage the situation, NOT take actions that end up with the company losing two valuable employees. .
Do you really not see what you are saying there?
You seem keen on pointing out the psychology of others but seem blind to your own. Physician, heal thyself.
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This seems to be more of a problem because "programming" is intangible. It is difficult to imagine a building contractor not billing for a change order on a customer's whim, particularly when this involves ripping out work that was already done which is fully functional.
Much of this appears to occur because of the failure to implement well known and time tested principles of project management such as adequately defining a project to avoid moving targets and attempting to nail the jelly to the tree. In many cases when the customer realizes they are paying for the changes they keep requiring, in money and/or delivery date slip, their changes stop.
Another significant problem, unless the project is properly modularized/packaged and rigidly controlled, is that non-productive activities/enhancements tend to creep in. Programming is a creative activity, and it is difficult to avoid adding "flourishes" which add nothing to the product functionality, and which only the programmer will notice, for example writing a subroutine that is available as a library function so the program is smaller or runs [marginally] faster. User interfaces are another creative trap prone to introduce endless tinkering. In many cases "good enough" is indeed good enough.
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I'm in agreement here. If this becomes the norm in the industry it's going to run the same destruction my other job had: In architecture the client is basically asking for a Rolls Royce, yet willing to pay only for a Mini. And then as the project continues adds to it, modifies it, asks for 100's of throwaway alternative designs, to the point where the actual amount of work going into it (at the end of several years) is equivalent to a passenger liner instead of the original under-quoted Rolls Royce.
And the trouble is that everyone's been doing it for so long now, that that is what every single client expects! If an architect refuses he will simply loose that project as well as any future projects since the client then just goes to the guy down the street who's perfectly willing to work himself to death for the bare minimum pay.
Used to be a lucrative career, now it's more like 16 hour days with pay you'd expect for a labourer. So if this is where the programming industry is heading, be sure to rather go with those far-east sweat shops like most architects are also now doing!
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I was reading the Apple Watch pun thread [^]
And I noticed how well thought out the indents are as the thread goes on. It starts with a full indent, goes to a half, then a quarter, then an eighth etc etc.
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gotta be a CP record those two set up  
»»» <small>Loading Signature</small> «««
· · · <small>Please Wait</small> · · ·
![Badger | [badger,badger,badger,badger...]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/badger.gif)
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For some reason, I'm reminded of the Kyntyre rule.
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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I'll need to Mull that over.
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[^]
Software Zen: delete this;
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That's the one!
Just think, you could have gone your whole life without Googling it. You are most welcome 
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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You know what Mathematicians say; if you keep going 1/2 then a 1/2 of a 1/2, etc. you will never reach you point. I think we proved it.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0 Beta
Have you ever just looked at someone and knew the wheel was turning but the hamster was dead?
Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell the color 9.
I'm not crazy, my reality is just different than yours!
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I guess there must be a fraction of truth to that.
Life is too shor
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I find it hard to divide my time.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0 Beta
Have you ever just looked at someone and knew the wheel was turning but the hamster was dead?
Trying to understand the behavior of some people is like trying to smell the color 9.
I'm not crazy, my reality is just different than yours!
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Mike Hankey wrote: You know what Mathematicians say Zeno of Elea used to say, before ancient Greek mathematicians proved otherwise;
FTFY. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_of_a_sequence[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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A mathematician, a physicist and a chemist* are in a room. At the centre of the room, is a beautiful woman. The scientist running the experiment explains the rules:
1. When you reach the woman, she's agreed to do whatever you want.
2. You can travel half the distance to the woman then you must stop
3. You can hen set off again, travelling half the remaining distance, then stopping.
4. Repeat step 3 as many times as needed.
The mathematician whips out a notebook and pencil, and exclaims "PAH! I can never reach the woman!" and leaves the room.
The physicist sets off, measuring the distance travelled at each iteration, and plots the points on a graph. After about 3 goes, he storms off saying it'll take an inifinite number of turns to reach the woman.
The chemist then happily set off, whistling a jaunty tune.
The chief experimenter asks why he isn't daunted, given the other two proved it would take infinite time to reach the woman.
"Simple", says the chemist " I believe I can get close enough for experimental purposes".
*Different variations of this joke appear depending on your allegience.
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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I don't like it. I can't tell what relates to what after a few levels.
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It's called a BD* indentation routine.
* Brewer's Droop
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I had a power outage this morning, that left my router bleeding to death...As I have wireless too I wanted to use it to connect the desktop, but there is no WiFi on it...So I took my phone, configured it as USB modem and connected to the PC! Now I can browse the web like old days, with the speed of a dial-up modem!
I love technology, for sure when it works...
I'm not questioning your powers of observation; I'm merely remarking upon the paradox of asking a masked man who he is. (V)
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