The Lounge - CodeProject

Did anybody mention Hitler yet?

This is all very silly. There seems to be some weird sense of entitlement requiring SO to be all things to all people. But out in the real world it has every right to be as nasty, exclusive, cliquey and arrogant as it wants. That's the nature of a free 'market'. It doesn't owe any of us anything. If it's not to your taste then use one of the many alternatives. Life is way too short to be demanding membership of a club which clearly does not either want or need you as a member!

I don't think anyone here is demanding membership. I think it is a case of StackOverflow having what looks to be on the outside a great source of info with people interacting and sharing.

StackOverflow makes you want to take advantage of that. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, areas we are not as knowledgeable about. StackOverflow on the outside looks like a great place to ask and share your knowledge.

Kind of like a restaurant with a nice fancy sign and front entrance.

But once you enter you are roughly thrown down a seat and told just exactly how you suck for even coming in the restaurant in the first place.

Then after you try the food you get another dose of attitude for your attempt and a kick in the butt as you exit the place.

I mean in my case when I created my account something went wrong. I was not able to comment or answer AT ALL. The ONLY THING I could do was ask a question. When I asked how to fix my account I got down voted, asked to roll back, you name it.

Instead of constructive information there was more bandwidth wasted on slamming me then there was pointing me in any right direction.

One guy told me I wasn't looking hard enough and he sent me a link to screen shot of topic and highlighted the answer and comment links and rudely said, if you'd read you'd see these and figure it out.

I calmly went to the same question and took a screen shot of my screen in 3 different browsers both on Win and Mac and sent it back to him with the caption: "Should I draw in my answer and comment links and see if the work because I don't seem to have them."

About a day later, magically my rep went up a point and suddenly the answer and comment links were active. Very curious as I didn't change a thing.

So I used my new found "power" to provide an additional comment(containing a different solution) a stackoverflow question that was already answered and roughly 1 year old. My rep went right back down and I was slammed for adding an answer to an "older", "Already answered" question and told I should remove my comment.

Well my commenttook a very different and very useful approach from the existing accepted answer. Why the down votes and wasted bandwidth telling me how I suck when my answer adds alternatives to solving the problem!?

I just don't get it.

But there are restaurants not unlike that and they have a regular clientele who go precisely for that reason. Some people thrive on rough and tumble, insult and abuse. That's just human nature.

You usually know what to expect from such places being forewarned by reputation. And so it is with SO. It seems churlish to complain about what you're getting if it's exactly what you'd expect. You don't throw yourself into a live volcano and then complain because it's a bit warm in there! Everybody knows (or at least should know) that there are a bunch of newbie hating jerks at SO so why get involved if you know you don't have the stomach for it? There are plenty of ways to access SO information and resources without engaging in the forum directly. And if it's forum activity you want there are any number of other sites to cater for it. It's futile to ask a site as well established as SO to change to suit you and merely a waste of breath to rant on about how many ways it doesn't meet your desires. Bang your fist on the mountain as much as you want but don't expect the mountain to give a damn.

Member 9082365 wrote:
But there are restaurants not unlike that and they have a regular clientele who
go precisely for that reason. Some people thrive on rough and tumble, insult and
abuse. That's just human nature.

You are absolutely right. However (pulling the age card here Smile | :)

in my almost 60 years of life not many last. Sure some do but eventually another restaurant comes long that offers better this, better that, cheaper and right across the street etc. The only thing... usually... that keeps the first place in business is a change.

As far as "reputation" I guess you are right that especially in this day and age you should search, read, get feedback on the place you wish to join before you join. However we are now in a "gotta have it yesterday" environment where sometimes the answer you need is really needed quickly or bad things could happen. It would suck to have to tell my boss. Sorry... I need to do a few hours of web research to see if I should join StackOverflow because I think they have the answer I need.

I agree 100% that it is futile to expect StackOverflow and similar big sites to change and trust me I'm not looking for a path of sweet smelling roses and a gift card because I graced their website with a question or comment. I don't mind being told when I'm wrong or doing something stupid. I try hard not to do so but when you are degraded for reasons beyond your control and for attempting to offer something that might help someone someday then it really says to me that StackOverflow is already on the path of those restaurants we speak of above. They will fade over time. Probably not ever just disappear but certain they have left the door open for others to jump in and take away membership.

And to make it clear I was not ASKING SO to change just for me. In fact I didn't ask them to change at all. The very existence of this thread indicates I'm not alone in my feelings and beliefs about that site. So don't get on me about trying to change SO. I wasn't I was merely (just like I was on SO) attempting to add to this thread my opinion.

Pulling the old card out for the last time, I'm almost 60 and I've been programming since I was 16. One of my first jobs was punching cards. Later I moved to up run technician where I ran the cards, kept the machine alive and later due to my electronics background became a repair technician.

I think part of the issue today is there is almost too much information and it is too easy to get to. Well not really because I believe in information access but I think you get my point. Perhaps the reason people get flamed on SO for "stupid questions" is because the information probably WAS available had they searched harder, longer, with different words or whatever.

I remember having 3 or 4 dialup sites (at 300 baud) where you could ask general questions about Fortran and the computer I worked on and because of the fact we paid for this service by the minute of online time answers were usually given quickly. Rarely if ever did someone say RTFM because we all tried to respect that the question was being asked for a reason. Most of the time when facing a strange problem you had three resources: Yourself, the printed manual, and this network of other people (at 300 baud) that were trying to make a living doing what you were doing.

I was dispatched to Dallas Texas one time to solve a problem with a tape drive. It was a new install and had been running for a couple months. When I got there I found out that some idiot had decided they did not need to keep the binders of printed manuals because us techs would have that info with us. Well no... not when they are 2-4 inches thick and there are like 30 of them.

So I got out my little TI modem terminal in the hotel room, paid $12 for long distance charges dialing into one of the "forums" I frequented and posted my dilemma. After dinner I checked back and some guy driven over to his office, gotten out his manuals and hand typed to me the two sections I needed in his reply. One section was a circuit diagram and he did it all with underscores, lines, and < > signs. I figure it probably cost him $5 of online time just to type that in but he did it anyway and saved me a trip home to get manuals. The next day I solved the customers problem which turned out to be a loose wire in a big connector and was on my way back home.

Ya ya... no one wants to hear the "old" stories but tough... that is how we did it. We helped each other in a new world where sometimes strange things drove you crazy and it was only some guy that sort of remembered something that he tried that helped.

I now work for a biomedical company and we use C#, EF, WPF and a number of other frameworks. Things are even more complex now and the need for information is driven by tough, fast paced markets so I always try to provide anything I can on the strange stuff I've come across. If SO isn't going to support/allow it then you are absolutely right. There are other places that will.

It's just a shame in my opinion.

I like your restaurant analogy... I was in New Orleans a couple of weeks ago, and took time to visit my favorite restaurant there: Mother's. Amazing food, great prices, constantly busy, but... Not the sort of place where someone sits you down, takes your order and chats about the weather. You're expected to know what you want, ask for it, pay, and get out of the way until your food is ready to be picked up - if you screw that up, you'll be gently but firmly informed of protocol.

SO aims to be the Mother's Restaurant of programming Q&A sites - open to all, providing good results fast. Anything that gets in the way of that is ruthlessly stripped away.

BTW, if you ever encounter issues with your account again, just let us know[^] - I or someone else will fix it.

You must be careful in the forest
Broken glass and rusty nails
If you're to bring back something for us
I have bullets for sale...

Thank you sir!

I think the key point in your reply is:

Shog9 wrote:
if you screw that up, you'll be gently but firmly informed of protocol.

Note the words "gently" and "firmly". Those are great words and yes I've been to such a place and agree you do need to learn to fit in. Most people in the world have no trouble doing that however one needs away to "learn" how to fit in. The gently and firmly are one way that happens.

You go in, you screw up, you get gently and firmly told here is how you do it next time.

The problem I see so often at SO is the gently is completely missing and usually the firmly consists of all the reasons you should not allowed near a keyboard, mouse and monitor. Not often do the "gently and firmly" posts do anything to point the misguided soul towards the right way to do things.

Shog9 wrote:
BTW, if you ever encounter issues with your account again, just let
us know[^] - I or someone else will fix it.

Thanks for that. I believe I did send a note but never got a reply. It just magically got fixed.

Oh my, such negativity towards SO.

I've been a long time user of the site myself, and while I am not saying it is perfect, most answers I see do try to help the person asking the question by answering the question as best as possible.

It is true that a question that to be exactly that (a specific question) and not a general 'how do I do this or that?'. Also it is appreciated that you have tried something, and are stuck (see http://whathaveyoutried.com/). And yes, I think both things are fair to ask.

Couldn't agree more!

I had an old account with about 700 rep but decided to start a new identity since things were quite different for me. I setup the new account but some strange glitch happened. I could not comment or answer anything to gain that valuable rep.

My ONLY option was to ask. So first I searched, I searched again, then finally I asked. I immediately went to -2 rep for asking about an issue with my account and why I could not comment and answer.

I also got a private message telling me what an absolute idiot I was for posting such a question. Included was a screen shot link showing me where the comment and answer buttons were. I replied calmly including links to screen shots where I had no comment or answer links and the next day suddenly I could. Someone fixed something quietly and my rep went up a point.

So I went back to the post I had been trying to answer and admittedly it was an older post but I had some new information on it. It matched my situation well and I'd found a way to work around the issue. So I added a comment with my new found ability. Valuable added information for anyone that might be in this same situation.

I got 5 comments most of them saying, "Why are you posting to such an old post (1 year) that has already been answered!? -1 for that."

I don't think SO gives you the ability to go below -2 so all their effort to write me and down vote me was just a waste of their time.

I just didn't get it. I mean my info was additive to the solution. Dealt exactly with the problem but yet no one wanted to see/hear the answer I had.

I stopped using it as another person here said, "out of anger". I won't ask a question even if I have it. I'd spend a day or two looking for another way to solve the problem than to use SO. Sure I'll search their results to help myself out, but I sure as hell won't add to their mess.

modified 11-Aug-14 9:54am.

I don't like stackoverflow, because it is more easy for people to close a question, and there is no way to reopen in when you disagree with their decision.
Negativity is very high there.

Not true. Any edit to a closed question automatically adds it to the reopen queue. (On the assumption that the edit was an attempt to fix what was wrong.)

You could also try leaving a moderator flag or asking why it was closed on Meta. However the Moderators aren't likely to summarily reopen it unless it was obviously closed by mistake or has ended up the subject of a close war; ditto for asking on Meta.

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt

It is more easy to close than reopen.
I can't see the reason why it is the case.

So much time I found a cool question, wanted to give response but a stupid one closed it. It is very frustrating.

I'm curious what you consider a cool question on SO that's been unfairly closed. I've got >100 questions there; none of which have been closed for any reason other than being duplicates. I don't have access to the close vote queue; but very little of what I see in the Very Low Quality one makes it above marginal.

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt

Search for ".NET Gotcha"[^]

An example of question lots of people loved and that got closed.
If a question have lots of vote, it should be harder to close it. Or at they can just give a way to easily reopen it by vote.

Stackoverflow isn't and doesn't want to be a forum. Big list questions like that aren't wanted; I'm surprised that question hasn't been locked with the annotation that it doesn't meet current standards and has not been deleted solely for historical reasons (read too many links pointing to it).

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt

You have question marked as "wiki", and this one could be, since you learn usefull stuff.
This question with 200 votes, and the top posts very interesting, a small number of moderators should not be able to lock it as easily as a question with 2 votes, or at least, other moderators should be able to unlock it by vote.

Part of the reason for the brutal honesty on SO has to do with eliminating bad answers. If you post an answer where your code is doing something stupid/horrible/etc you will get down voted, and I think that is appropriate.

I see a lot of people on this thread who sound to me like they got their ego bruised by some 'Murican, and are not equipped to deal with it. Remember we all have ego's including you, try and stop and think if it is your own ego getting in the way of understanding why people are flaming you on SO. Calling them names solves anything? Well maybe it protects your ego?

I don't answer questions on SO ever because I do not believe being involved in flame wars on a "professional" site is going to benefit my career. I have seen people get flamed even when it turned out the flamer was wrong!

I have asked several questions, and never got down voted or flamed.

I appreciate the people here complaining about SO for self-identifying as morons. The software industry is better off without them.

As a regular participant on the site (Matt Davis), I understand what you are referring to, but I take exception to the notion that all "the top uses" start voting down and ranting. I have never once seen Jon Skeet, for example, "rant" on SO. The same goes for Marc Gravell and most of the other truly top users. Most of the top users and many others, including myself, view SO as an opportunity to share our knowledge and experience with those that may be new or stuck on a particular problem. This covers the vast majority of my experience on the site.

Still, your criticism is not without merit. There are some users that do tend to lord their experience over newer users and abuse the privileges afforded by their reputation. But these are not ordinary SO users. They represent a small, but sometimes very vocal, minority.

In my experience, new users that ask a "simple" question are often asking a poor question. In many cases, the question has already been asked and answered before by other users. In these cases, the questions are closed quickly with a link to the duplicate. Other times, it is clear that the question is related to homework, which is a clear "no-no" on the site. Still other times, the question is convoluted or constructed with very poor English to the point that it is simply impossible to understand what is being asked. In both of these cases, the questions will be closed quickly, which may certainly add to the frustration of a new user but is in keeping with the policies that have been enforced for years now.

For me, SO is an invaluable resource. I find that many problems I encounter have already been addressed on the site, and I flag many questions so that I can use the answers for quick reference in the future. There is no other place like it on the internet for developers.

In closing, I regret that your experience with SO has been met with frustration. Despite your misgivings, I stand by my claim that the vast majority of users are there to help, not to tear down. I would encourage you to continue learning and, when possible, contribute to the learning to those coming behind you. That's how we help ensure the progression of our craft.

Perhaps if the more powerful users who are being dickish had a way to get downvoted for their dickish behavior, it would help make it a more friendly environment. Newbs on the site have no power at all. They're encouraged to ask questions to gain reputation and then are often slammed for asking inappropriate questions. Sure, they should read the FAQ. But they're newbs. It's their job not to know what they're doing.

When one of the dickish power users inappropriately punishes a newb for being a newb, or punishes an experienced user for doing something the power user just doesn't like personally, we "rabble" should have some way to vote a**hole points on that power user. SO should put some effort into preventing the the site from becoming exactly what it isn't supposed to be - a bully den.

This is the kind of request you'd make on the Meta StackOverflow site. Be forewarned, though, phrasing such a request the way you just did will elicit the same kind of venom you are decrying.

"SO should put some effort into preventing the the site from becoming exactly what it isn't supposed to be - a bully den."

They do. SO is one of the most anal run help sites I've ever seen. Drop into meta sometime and read some of the conversations that go on in there, all over a help site.

Yes, occasionally people with the appropriate seniority will do things that don't seem fair, and probably aren't fair, but that's not the site as a whole. Further, that alone isn't an explanation as to why these people (like the OP) are having such horrific experiences at SO. The more likely explanation (which we'd probably see should he ever post a link to his question) is that they refuse to take the time to write a useful question.

The reason newbs don't get "dick points" to hand out anytime they get butt hurt over someone else is precisely the same reason they're butt hurt in the first place, because they haven't been around long enough to understand the community.

But hey, feel free to start your own QA site. Many start with the mission of "we'll take the time to explain anything to anyone" quickly devolves into "RTFM!" in due time as those spending their precious time answering questions start getting tired of people not bothering to do their own work before asking.

Jadoti wrote:
But hey, feel free to start your own QA site. Many start with the mission of "we'll take the time to explain anything to anyone" quickly devolves into "RTFM!" in due time as those spending their precious time answering questions start getting tired of people not bothering to do their own work before asking.

That's like saying, "hey, if you don't like Avatar, make your own movie." One doesn't have to be an expert in cuisine to know when food tastes spoiled. Any situation can be made better, and calling out the shortcomings of a system can indeed lead to improvement.

I'm not asking for people to give up on expecting users to know the rules; as software dev tools support engineer, I field all kinds of questions every day, from the idiotic to the supremely perplexing software failures. It's easier for me to approach it with care because I get paid a fair amount to do it. But the minority of SO (and all the unconnected-with-your-account sites that go with it) volunteers who are just bags of disdain, should not be left unchecked. It's really hard to get any traction when you're at the bottom of the food chain, and SO is worse in this respect than most food chains.

Let's make sure we don't lose focus of what's going on, the user (like OP) is coming to the site asking for free help, and complaining when he doesn't get what he wants on his terms.

It's not a case of food tasting spoiled, it's a case of coming in, demanding stuff, and complaining when the free meal isn't up to the level they wanted. They can look around and see tons of others enjoying their meals, but since the newb's meal isn't as good it must be just because he's new and the senior people don't like him. It's *definitely not* because the newb didn't read the rules when he came in and proceeded to ignore them when making his demands.

Like someone else here stated, garbage-in garbage out. Take the time to write a quality question, and they'll get quality effort (again, free) out of people who want to help. Come in with a stupid question and it'll be taken as the lack of respect for other people's time that it is.

Thousands of users, many new, get by on SO every day... they're asking questions, getting answers, and generally everything is flowing well. The OP, complaining, refuses to even link to his own question. I believe he's well aware his question was poor, but it's easier to just come here and complain.

Br.Bill wrote:
Any situation can be made better, and calling out the shortcomings of a system can indeed lead to improvement.

Agreed, but it's a matter of perspective. Wade through enough of those low quality questions and you'll be glad that the better system (downvotes and flagging to knock the poor questions out of site) is there.

pandu web dev wrote:
In stackoverflow, if a new one asks a simple question, then the top users starts down voting, ranting.

Can you link us the questions on SO that happened to?
I would be very interested in the questions myself.

pandu web dev wrote:
If someone don't have knowledge on particular topic or another then the regular users start insulting them.

Could you please link to the SO posts in question that demonstrate this stated behaviour?
I make every effort to flag any insulting comments and posts regardless of the users reputation.

pandu web dev wrote:
They call themselves as experts.

Could you please link to any SO comments or posts where users claim to be experts or what is your statement based on?

pandu web dev wrote:
They are playing with site good reputation.

Not sure exactly what you mean by "playing with good reputation" Frown | :(

I love SO and I love helping people, getting reputation for it is self rewarding, though I could start charging for my efforts a affordable daily rate if that is preferred Smile | :)

pandu web dev wrote:
Overall this website has became very funny.

I think that might not be the intend of SO.

SO is not intended to be funny but a collection of useful questions with useful answers that current and future users can benefit from,...for free.

If you are stuck and have tried several solutions but don't know any further ask a question on SO.

All that is required is a to the point question, describing the issue, a description of what they have tried and preferably some code demonstrating the issue, if possible.

Having read the SO FAQ on what question to ask and how to ask them does help in obtaining the desired results.

I had to do that too before I asked my first question. Reading FAQs and manuals are part of the learning process.

SO is not for users looking to obtain help without any self effort, though they do get their questions answered by users who care more about upvotes than teaching a guy how to fish!

SO is not oDesk, Freelancer or anything equivalent, though we do get sometimes users ask "questions" like: "Please write me an application that does X and Y. Thank you in advance"

SO is also not a social media site or discussion board, nor a hangout for friends and family to discuss random non related topics.

Looking forward to your links to the SO posts in question , maybe I can even help answer any of those unanswered questions you found problems with and help flag any inappropriate behaviour in them.

Oh yes the "simple question."

Like one I saw today (paraphrased), "I am using pthreads. Something is wrong because when my thread finishes I notify my main thread but it never gets notified."

Oh yes. Like I can answer that. No, that question vaporizes in less than 2 minutes with 6 downvotes. Because it is useless.

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