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johannesnestler wrote: copy paste from apple fainboi forum  - man have you ever USED Win 8.1? Every sentence is crap
you are the current a**hole here. You are trying to answer a serious discussion with shite.
You are the fanboy!
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Nope, johannesnestler is the only one making sense.
The OP clearly has not used Windows 8 at all, it took me all of 5 minutes to realise that Windows 8 is exactly the same as every other version of Windows if you stay on the desktop.
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If "it took you all of 5 Minutes" then it is you who hasn't used W8 and had the opportunities to discover the multitude of issues it has. I've pointed out a small selection in posting above.
I've used W8 for more than a year and wholeheartedly agree with the OP. If all you do is browsing the web, W8 is fine. For serious work, it's a huge pain. If I hadn't already put so many hours of work into my ultrabook just to make it similarly productive as every W7 or XP machine is already out of the box, I'd switch to Linux instead: that would probably also require some work to configure, but at least then I'd knew I'm in control.
As for johannesnestler, he disqualified himself from the discussion by needlessly insulting the OP, without even attempting to make a civilized argument.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I've actually been using it exclusively since beta(nearly 2 years now) and once you are on the desktop there is absolutely no difference from Windows 7(you do know that there is still a desktop right?). I agree that the Metro interface or whatever it's called now is a waste of time but there is absolutely no reason to use it.
What specific issues are you having with Windows 8? I saw that you mentioned Window sizes in your previous comment(whaat?) The OP's example is also completely useless, how does it take more clicks to e-mail a screenshot or use the calculator?
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See my posting here[^] (I hope the link tot he posting works - otherwise just look for my very first response to JimmyRopes in this topic)
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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The interface is not as different as it may seem. Sure, there's the store apps and the fullscreen app environment, but there's also the regular desktop environment. You can even set an option to boot directly to desktop. Then you pin your most recently used stuff to the task bar and the interface is basically Windows 7.
Sure, the full screen app store world is there, but you're not forced to use it.
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For some reason people seem to think that all that desktop users need is the ability to switch to the desktop and maybe a start menu. That isn't true at all. These two things are just what opens the door to serious work - but it doesn't go halfway to being as productive as Windows XP and Windows 7 were out of the box.
There are plenty of issues that make the W8 desktop needlessly hard to use; some caused by touch based functionality, some by removed functionality, some by the UI getting in the way in a manner it never did in any previous version.
This isn't a matter of choosing whether or not to use the metro/app world - it is the issue that the non-Metro/App world is messed up, too!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish.
Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more. There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective, not playing well with Visual Studio etc.
The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps, but that is mainly aimed for casual and tablet use; NOT to replace your main workstation/production/development environment (blabla..)
To add:
I have 3 Win 8.1 devices at home (2 gaming/development PCs, 1 laptop)
Dual boot Win8.1 and Win7 at work. Win7 is on here because I'm forced to by the IT admins, but much of my real testing is on Win8 because I need Virtual Machines, and Win8s Hyper-V is significantly more awesome than most others like virtualbox and VMware.
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Greyze wrote: Sorry to be a hater but everything you said is basically rubbish.
He may not have expressed himself very well, but your hand-waving doesn't make the problems go away. Not his and not mine.
Greyze wrote: Every single valuable thing in Win7 is in Win8 PLUS more
I am not aware of any W8 desktop functionalty that I am missing in vanilla W7. However, there are plenty of things that are harder to do in vanilla W8 desktop than they were in vanilla W7 or XP. Not significantly harder, but enough (for me) to look and install alternate solutions and programs that bring back the W7 desktop functionality.
Greyze wrote: There is no downside or change in Win8 that somehow magically makes multi-tasking less effective
Yes there are plenty. I've pointed some of them out in another posting. I don't care whether these were magical changes, but they're there.
Greyze wrote: The only thing that people "think" they have a complaint about is the Metro UI and apps,
Wrong again. Neither the OP said this, nor am I complaining about that. I couldn't care less whether W8 provides 2 different UIs or 20. The fact remains that the one UI that I and the OP care about has been messed up for no good reason.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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If you're going to multiquote and refute every single piece then it would be nice if you backed up something with evidence.
My "hand-waving" is all someone can get if they don't actually provide legitimate problem, if anyone has a problem then they should explain it clearly to get help. Just saying everything's bad gets no where.
What's things are harder to do exactly? install what "alternate solutions"? The only advocated software I've ever seen is bringing back the old start menu, but that isn't a benefit.
Plenty of things that make multi-tasking less effective? like what??
While the OP doesn't explicitly state it, a few things he mentions sounds like he's strongly referring to the Metro UI, which is obviously "NOT" for development or any power-user task. The original desktop UI is still there and it's vastly improved over Win7 (Such as no more useless Aero, much better explorer window, much more detailed Task manager, plenty of better shortcuts etc.), the only big difference is that there's a full screen start menu which isn't exactly a problem.
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See my posting here[^]
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Well I like my Win8.1 - I upgraded most of my machines by now.
Start-Menu is an non-issue as I always die <win-button> ... start typing/searching.
I like the UI (I just wish you could make title background without having to mess around in your registry) - you don't have to use the charms if you don't want to - all you need is to remember a few shortcuts (if you need to touch your mouse you failed - this is true for Win7 also  )
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Well I run W8.1 on my laptop. That laptop is basically my portable development environment with VS 2013. It runs just great!
I have also a main PC which is my primary development machine with Windows 7. Both are just great, BUT the multiple monitor thingy in Windows 8.1 is just much better.
But still I never would buy W8.1 for my main pc as long I have the OEM Windows 7 for it.
Talking about differences in programming, I don't notice any problems with WPF, Windows forms, ASP.net or other technologies from .net or Java. I guess it depends on the power your Windows 8.1 machine has. As well I have to say (even with a less powerful CPU and GPU) my Laptop (windows 8.1) boots 3-4 times faster than my Windows 7 device.
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I've been doing a lot of work on a website recently, using AngularJS extensively.
I have been working on this websites' search page, trying to make it look as slick as possible, and doing so by minimizing page reloads as much as possible.
As a result of this, I have been preventing the page from reloading when I update the URL (and therefore browser history), but at the same time detecting this myself and implementing the changes the user would normally see on the URL change manually (but trying to avoid any sort of flickering), the idea is to make the website feel as much as possible as though it's a desktop application.
It's been a freaking nightmare! The end result is a website that looks and feels great until you do something unexpected, and then it all falls apart. I have realised that I have been basically trying to do everything the browser does naturally, while been preventing the browser from doing what it does naturally.
There's just no way I can prevent the browser itself from doing it's thing, and do all of the things it does myself in Javascript. You are basically stopping the browser from doing anything, while trying to cover all of the edge cases the browser handles comfortably yourself. The reality is that crazy amounts of hours have gone into making those browsers do what they do well.
I'm starting to realise that this is probably why really big websites such as this one, Amazon, Google etc can feel a little clunky sometimes. It is because they are just using the browser as it is supposed to be used, and ending up with websites that are ever so slightly clunky, but way much more usable/functional.
The web, and the frameworks we use still have limitations which we have to abide by, we just aren't quite there yet.
I'm posting this now because it's a Friday night, and I am mulling the whole thing over with a pint!
Do you lot agree, or not?
modified 18-Jul-14 18:32pm.
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Are you using the routing built into angular, or a library like bbq to handle the history? I definitely would not want to have to manage that myself.
I don't see it as much with Google and facebook, but I think big sites like Amazon take so much work to change and their content is so complex that they are a few generations back technology wise. They have to operate at huge user and content scale, with an enormous number of features, that pushing the envelope with their UI would probably take too much work.
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Too much to read. Life is too short! 
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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HomerTheGreat wrote: I have been basically trying to do everything the browser does naturally, while been preventing the browser from doing what it does naturally.
The human body evolved, fortunately, in a way where there are certain places on it that its owner's mouth cannot reach.
“I'm an artist: it's self evident that word implies looking for something all the time without ever finding it in full. It is the opposite of saying : ‘I know all about it. I've already found it.’
As far as I'm concerned, the word means: ‘I am looking. I am hunting for it. I am deeply involved.’” Vincent Van Gogh
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BillWoodruff wrote: The human body evolved, fortunately, in a way where there are certain places on it that its owner's mouth cannot reach
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Fully agree; a lot of these frameworks, and the sites that get created these days, are essentially working against the browser and the nature of the Web, which is a recipe for heartbreak. It's much more effective to simplify the UI and strip out unnecessary features to get a good honest to god web site that does what it needs to do and no more. If you need an application, write an application. all the Web skullduggery exists to cut down on deployment hassle, and it's a cheap way out. Which is something that never works.
I too dabbled in pacifism once.
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If you're trying to make an uber polished site, is AngularJS even the right tool to be using? IIRC it's target audience is people trying to crank out decent looking LoB sites quickly; not developers of ultra shiney consumer sites.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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I can't recall who it was, but someone used to post something like this every week. I wonder why that stopped. (Ok, I don't really wonder but thought I'd mention it).
Anyway, happy bloody Friday, people.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
Those who seek perfection will only find imperfection
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
me, in pictures
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it was V.
Or was it Vunic ?
Or maybe Vasudevan Deepak Kumar !
Anyway someone with a name starting with "v".
And it was called : It's Friday !
Happy Friday !
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Happy Friday, have a nice weekend!
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Considering that's when most people will read this.
Jeremy Falcon
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