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*cough* were playing 11 vs. 10.
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Not from the beginning... And they weren't any better then...
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Reposted from the Database.
At the end of the 90ties we somehow got into ORM. At the time - no matter how hard we tried - we always ended up with a messy and complicated code and filthy compromises. And it hasn't changed. But somehow frameworks like NHibernate and EntityFramework are becoming very popular.
So here is my rant.
Some time ago I worked on large projects and things were pretty predictable. You've got DB model. You generate your SQL procedure layer and your C# layer. Then you create your component / web service / wcf service / restful service and serialize results of your C# calls as POCOs.
Now try to do this with fancy NHibernate objects with auto-resolving proxy objects for related entities. It won't work. Because when objects are serialized their auto-resolving lazy evaluating proxies aren't. To solve it you duplicate /I'll write it again, for drama effect: duplicate/ your objects to create serializable POCOs. And then you create them CRUD functions on top of object models. Or even separate the entities /drama: dereference them having no two entities connected/... And, hey, you are back where you were with the stored procedures - only with lousier performance and three layers of crap on top of it.
So next time someone comes with a fancy-schmancy ORM wrapper it better already include web service / wcf service or restful service abstraction and work on top of it; rather then bellow it! Because otherwise we just off-load drudgery to the web services and call it "business layer" when in fact it is really a freaking "ORM back to stored procedures layer."
There. Hhhh...shhhh... I already feel better.
So ... how do YOU handle ORM and web services?
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Tomaž Štih wrote: So ... how do YOU handle ORM and web services?
I don't.
Problem solved.
Seriously, anything that has anything to do with them sucks. It's cursed.
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Hear! Hear!
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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Our company just decided to use ORM inside of lightweight (well, bloody heavyweight now) web api services.
five billion lines of code and much faffing about just to return the result of a simple stored proc as JSON
"OH! but what if the database changes, or we need to supply XML or..."
well, if it takes ten times as long to flaming well write as it does to knock it up with a flaming stringbuilder, then in my book it's a waste of friggin' time.
I now await the moment when something does change and it takes some poor developer three days just to find the right class to modify!
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Back atcha - I have been using a home rolled ORM for over 15 years, started in VB5 and now support Silverlight/WCF. So a new kid on the block manages to talk me into EF, f*** me roan, there is a piece of sh*t if I ever saw one, change the name of a field (Customer.Customer is illegal) and spend the next 5 hours trying to work out how to fix your models!
Yeah I know it is familiarity but I like my hand rolled tool, I wrote the frickin thing and I know what it does, if I call it a dog it goes off and barks at a junior dev for me!.
Now shall we get started on the dogs breakfast called MVC, what a collection of half baked crap that is! No, I fell a whole new rant coming on over the MVC issue.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Tomaž Štih wrote: how do YOU handle ORM
I don't, and judging by this thread and others, I think you'll find that most developers with significant experience with code and databases don't use them.
It seems to be the development equivalent of wearing pants around your knees -- the practitioners seems to think it's cool, but to everyone else you're just causing yourself trouble, effort, and embarrassment with no benefits.
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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What's orange and sounds like a parrot?
I said, "I don't know, what's orange and sounds like a parrot?"
He said ... "a carrot!" 
Look I'm sorry, I'm on holiday next week and I'm over excited! ![Jig | [Dance]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/jig.gif)
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful"
Chris C-B
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DeathByChocolate wrote: I said, "I don't know, what's orange and sounds like a parrot?"
Chocolate, because Chocolate is always the answer.
I am happy for your vacation. I hope the weather is fine and you have great time  Afterwards you can share some pictures with the rest of us.
Microsoft ... the only place where VARIANT_TRUE != true
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Argonia wrote: Afterwards you can share some pictures with the rest of us.
...Could be taken on a vacation, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no MOAR! [^] 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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I was thinking of a pictures of nice choco & ice cream melbas, the ones who can be found in islands like Bora-Bora.
You know exotic dishes.
But if you ask Death nicely you maybe can recieve your "nudge nudge, wink wink, say no MOAR!" pictures.
I believe you can pay her with ice-cream and choco.
Microsoft ... the only place where VARIANT_TRUE != true
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Argonia wrote: But if you ask Death nicely you maybe can recieve your "nudge nudge, wink wink, say no MOAR!" pictures.
I believe you can pay her with ice-cream and choco.
For some reason, I kinda doubt it...
But I can try: Aaaaaaliiiii! PLEASE! Pretty please! I'll give you all the chocolate I can afford!
Now, on the other hand: I know that Nagy can be easily bought off with a pint of gin, but somehow, that's not quite the same... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Johnny J. wrote: pint of gin
It comes in pints?
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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In Nagy's local bar it does!
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-----
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-----
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Argonia wrote: Chocolate, because Chocolate is always the answer.
 Indeed!
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful"
Chris C-B
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... and you just can't hide it!
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I'm about to lose control and I think I like it
I was going to use the "And I know I know I know I know I know I want you" line, but frankly? You're not my type.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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I want to love you, feel you,
Wrap myself around you.
I want to squeeze you, please you,
I just can't get enough.
... and that's what I sing to my chocolate bar! 
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful"
Chris C-B
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Until the last line, I was getting worried!
(Herself might not take it well) 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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What's Yellow and Highly Dangerous?
Shark Infested Custard.
How do you get four elephants into a Mini?
Two in the front, two in the back.
How do you get an elephant into the fridge?
1. Open door.
2. Insert elephant.
3. Close door.
How do you get a giraffe into the fridge?
1. Open door.
2. Remove elephant.
3. Insert giraffe.
4. Close door.
The lion, the king of the jungle, decided to have a party. He invited all the animals in the jungle, and they all came except one. Which one?
The giraffe, because he was still in the fridge.
How do you know there are two elephants in your fridge?
The door won't close.
How do you know there are three elephants in your fridge?
There'll be one waiting outside in the Mini.
How can you tell that an elephant has been in your fridge?
By the footprints in the butter.
Why do elephants wear shoes with yellow soles?
So you don't see them when they float upside down in a bowl of custard.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote: So you don't see them when they float upside down in a bowl of custard
 That's actually not a joke, it's factually correct.
I was ambushed when eating a bowl of custardy pudding by a hot sticky elephant and I've never been able to face a Spotted Dick since! 
"State acheived after eating too many chocolate-covered coconut bars - bountiful"
Chris C-B
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What you do in the privacy of your own home...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Quote: What you do in the privacy of your own home...
we want pictures of. No wait... 
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