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Espen Harlinn wrote: and even if you did really good quantitative work last year, you're seriously outdated today.
..as a rule of thumb, of course. Which is how this thread got started 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Nagy Vilmos wrote: 25 years in the IT industry, all in Finance - Pensions, Banking [Retail and Corporate], Asset Management, Trading, Market Data, etc, etc, etc.
£40K??? 
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Nagy Vilmos wrote: *Birmingham, Alabama's is a lot nicer and more tolerant. Imagine the worst of Soviet deprivation, then take away the style and taste.
Oi! Oiu hayle from Brumidgum, and it's roit grate, k? I amn't goan tayke that from sum suthenner!
MVVM # - I did it My Way
___________________________________________
Man, you're a god. - walterhevedeich 26/05/2011
.\\axxx
(That's an 'M')
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I've also been in the *the game* for a long time and until recently I've always been busy, I find myself back job hunting and can't believe the people you have to deal with in your quest for a contract, a typical advert is something like this
Senior .NET Software Engineer, minimum 5 years experience, must have: TDD,AGILE,SCRUM,RUBY,PHP,POSTGRE,SYBASE,INGRESS,BDD,FU2,C#,VB,C++,SQL RDBMS, etc..., then the killer line WOULD SUIT GRADUATE !!!!
WTF ?
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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Nagy Vilmos wrote: Rule of thumb - born after I started work === not worth speaking to.
Well, they definitely are impacted by growing up through the internet age but I think it is more about maturity of experience. When I was 21, I didn't feel like an adult, but was kind of insulted and then missed getting asked for my ID every time I went into a bar about 6 years after that.
First off, you get exceptions. My nephew at 15 was difficult to talk with, knew very little about general conversation, but left me in the dust with computers. I felt like an idiot about a field I had been in longer than he was alive. That hasn't changed, he recently turned down a $2M offer for his source code.
Anyway, my rule of thumb is >=28. (My nephew has several years to go, to reach that ripe old age.)
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Marc Clifton wrote: it's my understanding that it is illegal to require on-site work unless it can be demonstrated that the work can only be done on-site
You are absolutely correct.
They want contractors so they can avoid the hassles of withholding taxes, paying SSI/Medicare, paying FUTA, providing Workman's Comp insurance, and paying for health benefits; these cost 55% to 75% of the employee salary. In theory, that's why contractors are paid so much more than employees, since they are presumed to provide these things for themselves. But any employer who attempts to dictate the hours or location of work is violating Federal labor and tax laws. If you have nothing better to with your time, you should accept one of these positions, then file criminal charges against the company. 
Will Rogers never met me.
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Roger Wright wrote: But any employer who attempts to dictate the hours or location of work is violating Federal labor and tax laws.
Can you point me to a DOL site that specifies this? Thanks,
/ravi
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Ravi, I think this is mostly in the Revenue Code, and case law over the years. Specifically, though, the IRS dictates who is an Independent Contractor, and the Labor code (or other labor specific laws) require things like FUTA and workman's comp. I don't have the particular references handy, but any decent HR representative ought to have that info handy.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Marc Clifton wrote: word of mouth is the best,
Amen to that, Marc. Have been doing that for 25+ years and never looked back.
Marc Clifton wrote: it's my understanding that it is illegal to require on-site work unless it can be demonstrated that the work can only be done on-site.
Wow, that comes as news to me. I've often worked in shops where the terms of the contracts offered to contract devs stipulated on-site development (along with other sundry requirements like proven knowledge of technology XYZ, etc.)
/ravi
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote: Wow, that comes as news to me.
Read Roger's response above. He verifies that issue.
Marc
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Yes, awaiting his reply.
It was my understanding that corporations were getting away with evading taxes by hiring contractors for long periods, thereby essentially substituting them for full-time employees. That was deemed illegal and several well-known large companies were taken to task about 5 years ago. But I had no idea that a short term contract couldn't stipulate on-site work.
/ravi
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote: thereby essentially substituting them for full-time employees.
Yeah, I got bitten by that in reverse. A company I had a multi-year contract with wanted me to become an employee, but I didn't want that because it would have been a significant pay reduction, and I also would not have been able to take advantage of the health care package because I'm in NY, not CA. It caused a bit of a stir, but the legal dept. sort of looked the other way. What eventually happened though was that I was let go of because (in my opinion, and my intuition / opinion is usually correct!) I was getting paid more than the senior manager - some new guy they brought in.
Marc
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Did that company contract with an insurer that didn't have national partners or just not care enough to do the minimum legwork to offer one?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Dan Neely wrote: Did that company contract with an insurer that didn't have national partners or just not care enough to do the minimum legwork to offer one?
Both.
Marc
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It's pretty much still the case.
But if you try to insist on your rights, they'll just hire someone else. And if you take them to court, you may never work in that field again.
I've been (mostly) a contractor since '98 and in most of those cases, I'm just a well paid temp rather than a true 'this is the spec, it pays $X/hr and we want it by date Y' contractor.
But a temp that pays their own tax and pension, and doesn't get to claim sick or holiday pay or any other benefits.
99% of what I do can be done anywhere where there is a desk and a good internet connection, but they like to be able to look over their fiefdom.
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Been there, done that ...
When I was last looking I had a chat with a friend who is a Management Consultant (no not that kind, one who actually gets positive results). She told me to research a few recruitment agencies and interview them before I let them have my details. However I only found one who I thought was really up to it, and they were moving out of IT; they told me. off the record, that there were too many time wasters in it, on both sides.
Veni, vidi, abiit domum
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Marc Clifton wrote: 1. Even when you check "remote work only" and "NO relocation", the phone rings off the hook with "can you relocate to Timbucktoo"
Same thing happened to me. Well, the positions were in the US, but all over the place and included JavaScript development, phone support, IT support and most recently a position for doing QA on car computer firmware (I had none of the required skills listed in my resume).
I actually still receive these mails even three months after taking down my resume. Who knows where that thing has been copied to. 
Marc Clifton wrote: 2. 98% of the calls are from job shops operated by [people from a different country, take a wild guess], God only knows where they're really calling from, with names like "Lucky", and mostly impossible to understand
I got these too and some of them wanted me to send them all kinds of personal information. I noticed that these recruiters would all call me up before sending an email - I hate that.
Don't get me wrong, I was contacted by good and honest recruiters, but it takes me some time figure out which category they fall into. The recruiter who got me my current job a few months ago was one of those and from the beginning had me matched up with two positions that were a good fit for me.
Soren Madsen
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SoMad wrote: Who knows where that thing has been copied to.
I only posted on Monster, but several of the recruiters saw my resume on Dice. Don't know if they share information or just are morons. I suspect the latter.
Marc
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I only posted on Dice, so I guess they work the same. My email address is not in my resume, so I think they must be sharing the information. Either that or they are constantly mining those sites and store resumes along with contact information for a rainy day.
Soren Madsen
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Marc Clifton wrote: 90K was barely acceptable
Wait a second... I initially read this as $90/hr. Are you actually considering a full-time job that pays $90K per year?
I understand you have to lower your price if you want to work from home, but based on your contributions here on CP (I haven't gone full cyber-stalking on you  ), I had mentally placed you in a completely different salary range. Something closer to 190K. Especially being on the East coast.
Soren Madsen
modified 20-Nov-13 16:38pm.
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SoMad wrote: Are you actually considering a full-time job that pays $90K per year?
No, not seriously, but given the ups and downs of the consulting business, at the moment it would actually be an improvement to my financial situation. Getting those $90 per hour jobs is easy enough to do if I want to sell my soul to the devil, namely the financial companies on Wall Street. Which I don't. Did that for 5 months a few years ago, and I would rather be banging out bad rhythms on cooking pots on a sidewalk with a tin box to collect quarters.
SoMad wrote: I had mentally placed you in a completely different salary range.
It varies all over the map. I had a lovely 3 years doing some work for a satellite manufacturer out in CA that was paying that, but then they got bought out, killed all inhouse development, and opted to spend a million or so on some third party commercial app that doesn't do half of what the engineers actually need. Managers 
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: I would rather be banging out bad rhythms on cooking pots on a sidewalk with a tin box to collect quarters.
Go for it!! Do what truly makes you happy!! 
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I make 45k in a Lead role on the east coast. West coast is where all the high salary gigs are. Though I am still making a startup salary.
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Yes, it's not really correct to divide that into East and West coast. In one of your posts, you said that you live in North Carolina. My old manager now lives and works in New York state and the general salary level is well above what it is here in San Diego where I live. Then again, the salary level is also higher up in the San Francisco area, so...
Soren Madsen
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I've never really understood programmer frustration with recruiters. I would never expect a stripper to teach Sunday school or a ![Sheep | [baah]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/sheep.gif) to design a Corvette, so I don't expect recruiters to be anything other than what they are - phone sales reps.
Having extensive experience teaching salespeople, I understand their thinking. Run the numbers, and x percent will turn into money. I approach my interactions with them in the same manner. The more recruiters, clueless or not, who have me on their list of people to ping, the greater my chances of bumping into what I want.
I get emails all the time from people asking for things that have never appeared on my resume. I don't reply and ask them if they've even read my resume. There's no benefit in that line of thinking. Instead, each time, I send them a nice two sentance email explaining that I'm currently unavailable and thanking them for thinking of me. When I am looking for a gig, you'd be surprised how many people remember me and try all the harder because I was nice to them. Reputation is a volume business, but it does pay off over time.
It's all a numbers game, on your side of the fence and theirs. The more contacts made, the greater the statistical probability of success. Getting frustrated with the quality of the numbers doesn't get you any closer to your destination. It just makes the ride more unpleasant.
I've never had much luck with monster, career builder or other general purpose sites. Dice has been useful, not so much as a source of jobs, but because I get more recruiters for my list. Rememeber, any time you're looking for gigs on a website, it's a race to the bottom. I'm surprised someone didn't ask you to work for 10k a year. Build yourself a good network of recruiters instead. You have to constantly stay on top of them to get results, but it's a better investment of your time than websites.
By the way, I know better than to poke you with a stick when you're cranky. Maybe I'll just back slowly to the exit now...
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