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That's a good list, although the math is not particular to just CS. In my Bioengineering classes I had to take the full 3-semester Calculus + Differential Equations + Linear Algebra + Biophysics/Biochemistry classes that are quite challenging mathematically. And, I also had CS 101 + 102 + Discrete math that I took as electives.
That being said...I've never created my own compiler! Sounds like fun. Maybe some day...
If I had the time, and the money, I would probably go back and get an MS in CS. But, it's just not possible, unfortunately.
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I've taken about the same amount of math as you (perhaps less calculus), and that's enough that I don't even remember the difference between a couple of them (e.g., discrete vs linear algebra), much less how to actually use any of it. 
And, like you, I want to go back to school to get a different degree. I sometimes feel my CS degree is too general and I want to go back to school for another specialty, such as architecture, some type of biology, some type of medicine, psychology, or physics/math (which would actually be in a more general but still interesting direction). Gotta pay off all that debt first though!
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aspdotnetdev wrote: Gotta pay off all that debt first though!
Yes...that is the trick, isn't it?!  Will be paying it off the rest of my life, it seems sometimes! 
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Alexander DiMauro wrote: what do you think are the most valuable things you learned in the CS degree
Algorithmic analysis and and an appreciation for what goes on under the hood (byte-code, IL, machine language) with a view to performance. Another thing that directly came in handy was my formal training in AI. My first programming job was at DEC's Artificial Intelligence Technology Center where I spent 7 years developing expert systems. While picking up AI theory "on the job" isn't impossible, I think I would've been at a severe disadvantage (and in fact would not have been offered the job) if I didn't already have an MS in CS with a concentration in AI.
That being said, here are some things I don't think they do (or can) teach in school. This is the kind of stuff you pick up through real-world experience.
- Real-world requirements analysis.
- Usability testing.
- Balancing feature creep with time to market.
- How to choose which features to implement (first).
- How to manage a development effort.
- How to write code that can evolve safely.
- How to design for security, performance and testability.
- How to write good documentation.
- How to take an idea to market.
- How to keep your customer happy.
- How to check your ego at the door (a requirement if you work at a startup).
/ravi
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Great list! Yes, project management skills, in general, come almost exclusively from real-world experience. I agree completely.
My favorite job was with a startup that (unfortunately) didn't last. But I sure learned a lot there!
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I'm in your boat, I think they're totally overrated (mostly because I'm jealous I don't have a certificate on my wall)
As others have mentioned, and I have found, the most important things in software engineering aren't (can't?) be taught in a school environment, like:
- You are not the best, and you do not know everything.
- Take pride in your work, but not too much - i.e. "kill your babies".
- Income is not directly proportional to "engineering beauty".
- Actually being interested in software engineering in the first place.
I will leave out all the cynical things I would add were the hour later than it is, but this is a condensed version of the list I say to myself every morning to relieve myself of self-esteem issues (being the only developer of ~30 in my company with no degree... in anything).
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Alexander DiMauro wrote: For those with a CS degree, what do you think are the most valuable things you learned in the CS degree that the rest of us are missing?
A head start on the theories. The best courses I've taken are compiler construction, programming languages, distributed systems and functional programming. These courses gave me a lot of ideas that I have used to solve problems over the years, often totally unrelated to the above topics.
Other than that, not much. When you get out of school, you're none the wiser than you were when you started. You just have some more tools in the toolbox to actually learn what's important. 
--
Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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I have Bachelor Degree in INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY.
Does it count in COMPUTER SCIENCE or Not in it?
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Sure it does 
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Yes it does. But when comes to the industry some times define in different ways too.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
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It's a little comforting that most the people here (or at least most of the people who took the survey) actually write software. 
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Even "Hello World" is a software. Right?
cheers,
Super
------------------------------------------
Too much of good is bad,mix some evil in it
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But I have written softwares when I didn't have a computer science degree(Just with Diploma in Computer in my 18th age). Now I'm with my Bachelor degree & now studying Master degree (Both degrees in corresponding).
thatraja |Chennai|India|
Brainbench certifications
Down-votes are like kid's kisses don't reject it 
Do what you want quickly because the Doomsday on 2012
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I write software and I have a computer engineering degree. I had roomies who did the CS degree and they are very different.
Judy
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss.
Lazarus Long, "Time Enough For Love" by Robert A. Heinlein
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Actually in most of the Universities offers Computer Science & Engineering degree, isn't it? Because there is always kind of scientific basis to discover.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
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CodingLover wrote: Computer Science & Engineering degree
It depends on the school but it's usually not one degree. The CS degree tends to be offered by the Arts & Science school in a university whereas the CompE is offered by the Engineering school. The basics are different. For example, my CompE course of study (with respect to required courses) was identical to the EE students for the first two years. After that it was all electives. I only had three courses over all 4 years that were the same as my CS roommate.
Judy
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss.
Lazarus Long, "Time Enough For Love" by Robert A. Heinlein
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Actually our Universities offers it.
I appreciate your help all the time...
CodingLover
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I have BSc in Industrial Eng and MSc in Civil Eng. Have been programming all my career. But no Computer Science degree. By the time I had my first programming course in uni (Fortran IV) I was already writing computer programs at home (Basic on Sinclair Spectrum).
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It would be overkill in my position, I think. I basically use VB and SQL Server in my job. I actually took a (never used) degree in History. Learned the basics of my current "trade" at now-defunct CLC (Computer Learning Center) and on-the-job.
- Life is a fountain
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If a CS degree would be overkill, then perhaps you're just being underutilized. 
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I got some degrees from physical sciences...I have been programming for over a decade. The passion seems to be a critical factor that makes you a good developer. Certain training in logical thinking makes your path smoother, no matter you were from Math, Physics or Biology.
Best,
Jun
modified on Monday, December 6, 2010 12:42 PM
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I can't believe nobody jumped on this one....
Do you have a computer science desgree?
on another note, I do have a dual degree in Biology and Chemistry with an emphasis in Biotechnology, and a graduate education in photo-physical and synthetic organic chemistry... 
I'd blame it on the Brain farts.. But let's be honest, it really is more like a Methane factory between my ears some days then it is anything else...
-----
"The conversations he was having with himself were becoming ominous."-.. On the radio...
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Sorry Leppie didn't see you down there... 
I'd blame it on the Brain farts.. But let's be honest, it really is more like a Methane factory between my ears some days then it is anything else...
-----
"The conversations he was having with himself were becoming ominous."-.. On the radio...
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I am a professional production programmer who writes computer software under constraints of both time and money for money paid by someone who will probably not use the software. Note that I draw a distinction between a professional production programmer and systems, research, hobbyist, or other types of programmer.
I am one of those people who hold academia in high regard, at least with respect to most subjects other than computer "science." I believe that what are being churned out are ill-equipped graduates who do not know the fundamentals of their chosen field. This criticism is levied toward computer software oriented subjects; I am not qualified to address computer hardware oriented subjects.
The small liberal arts college from which I graduated offered only four Bachelor of Science degrees: biology, chemistry, mathematics, and physics. Perhaps to some that was extremely limiting. I felt that way until I asked my undergraduate mentor why we were not offering a degree in nuclear engineering. His response was simple - "We offer a basic, in depth, science curricula. If you want more specialized material, wait until graduate school." Of course, he was right. I found that my studies in physics allowed me to program the solution to almost any problem. And, when I was unable to understand the underlying mathematics, or chemistry, or biology, there were resources that I could tap.
My personal experience has convinced me that the current offerings of most US undergraduate programs miss the point. If a student requires an advanced education in computer science, let that training wait until graduate school. Otherwise, have the student obtain a basic education in accounting, biology, chemistry, economics, English, finance, fine arts, history, mathematics, philosophy, physics, psychology, or sociology. For then, the student is educated in fields upon which computer programming can be applied. I have never heard the requirement, in the production environment, to solve a problem in computer science. Rather, throughout my career, I have encountered the need to program solutions to problems in accounting, biology, chemistry, economics, English, finance, fine arts, history, mathematics, philosophy, physics, psychology, and/or sociology.
I am not saying that the study of computer science is not important. I am only saying that it is premature to teach it at the undergraduate level.
I am reminded of a young man who worked as an intern at the same laboratory where I was a contractor. My client asked me to provide the intern with a project to be accomplished during the summer. I asked the intern if he wanted a trivial problem that would have no real lasting value or a highly complex problem that had been troubling me for some time. He chose the later and performed brilliantly. I do not use "brilliantly" very often, but to this young man it certainly applied.
During the summer, he came to me to ask my opinion. He had been accepted to well known and highly regarded university and wanted to know what he should choose as a major. He had indicated that he wanted to major in computer science. Because he was so bright, I suggested that he major in physics or math. If he wanted to take some computer science courses, he should take them as electives. At the end of the summer, he left for school.
The following summer, he returned on another internship. Again, he wanted a difficult challenge. Again, the problem was highly complex. Again, he performed brilliantly. About half way through the summer, he came to me and asked why I hadn't talked about his university choices. I told him that his decisions were his and although I was interested, I figured that he would tell me when he was ready. He told me that he had followed my advice. He was taking a double major, physics and mathematics, and taking a minor in computer science. What floored me more was that he was returning as a junior, skipping his sophomore year. He went on to a successful career.
What has happened to today's students? I think they are looking for the easy way to big dollars. I'm sorry but that does not exist, nor has it ever existed. What is worse is that many of our colleges and universities in the US have become businesses, responding to the whims and desires of potential students. They are now more interested in money and are less interested in education. I communicated with an influential professor (who will remain unnamed) who claimed that mathematics need not be taught in a computer science curriculum. Considering the views of E. W. Dijkstra, this professor has totally missed the point of a science education. Without mathematics, how can anyone determine order statistics? How can anyone program anything other than the more trivial problems facing the real world?
What is the result of the money oriented colleges and universities? A group of poorly educated graduates who cannot program without a large investment mentoring them in accounting, biology, chemistry, economics, English, finance, fine arts, history, mathematics, philosophy, physics, psychology, and sociology.
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