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But, but what about the big software factories where you have a bunch of code monkeys, then teams leads then BAs and the BAs are the only ones to talk to the users and the PM are the approvers - oh yeah I forgot, they turn out crap most of the time.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Yup and if they gave a damn they'd involve the developers in meetings with the customers even if it was sitting in the background and keeping their mouths shut and rotating through all the developers if necessary. Any developer who has any effect whatsoever on the usability of code to the end user and who has not looked a user in the eye as they describe the trouble they have with using the program is a crap developer who will learn nothing and make horrendous design mistakes over and over.
P.S. how's Sherlock doing these days? 
“If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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John C wrote: how's Sherlock doing these days?
The moniker actually came from this book The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress[^] but then I'm an old fart who grew up on RAHs stuff.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Ahh...I too grew up on RAH and I remember that computer well. I guess I should have asked how's Mannie doing these days. 
“If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people together to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea”
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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John C wrote: how's Mannie doing these days
Still scratching his arse with his tin hand!
I just started reading the Uplift series, Sundiver, I look forward to the rest of the series although I'm pretty sure I have read some of them in isolation.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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That's what I would have picked.
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There's no CListCtrl either!
It was ever thus, the Neophiles will always rush out and get 'The Latest Thing' at a high price and with all the inherent faults - Dalek Dave.
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In my case Developer team is different than Support team
So, It is not common we talk with the final user. Normally we do it with the consultants, and with the marketing department. And they with the users.
I think if the company is small, the team has to do my tasks and could have contact with the users. 
luisnike19
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I get to talk to my customers all the time and basically I am part of their team, although I work for a different organization. I am the developer, support team, requirements gatherer, etc. Where I am most fortunately is that they love my software, especially because I am able to deliver extremely quick turn-around on their requirements. At times, they think I am a god... 
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don't know why there is some prick going around univoting the poll comments. anyway i +5'd you.
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I seriously look forward to going back to a one man show or at least a very small team again. Our team has grown from 2 people to about 15 over the last 5 years and the entire aspect of the job has changed 
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Marc
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Only if you also listen to yourself.
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Nah its when you start arguing with yourself and then brag about winning the argument that you need to worry.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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I visit my users frequently (they're handily in the same building). The rapport is such that they'll do some things for me which are quite valuable:
- They'll contact me with little problems (before they grow)
- They'll make practical suggestions
- If they get a pop-up error message, they all know to write it down for me, or call me while it's still on their screen
This turns out to be a symbiosis: they get the tweaks to make their work easier. In one case, I change the background of the app to fit in with the season - and relieve the boredom. It's painless and shows a little thought.
It just seems, if one is fortunate enough for this scenario to exist, the right way to do things. Convert the enemy* (user) into an ally (feel like a partner). Give them the feeling (illusion ?) that I'm an approachable human being.
The benefit for both sides of this is apps that, shortly after the initial release, don't even hiccup in use. Makes us all so happy.
* We are (or should be) programming defensively, which implies we are under attack, which further implies an enemy, and that the enemy is the attacker.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek dissappointment. If you are searching for perfection in yourself, then you seek failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I'm trying to do the same. The hardest part is that some really small but user friendly features cannot be implemented because of all the overheat that goes in documenting it, signing off, etc.
Trust is a weakness.
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I did stuff that was used inside the company. So I regularly talk with the other developpers. I know it's not the same thing as a more "common" client but I tell you. Even when they're developers, they still don't know what they want.
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and they think that I'm an a**hole...they really do. You can't please everyone. No matter how well you do your job and how well the software works, someone will ALWAYS find something wrong with it. Users suck.
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It sounds like you're in the same boat I am. Most of the time, if an app works well, the user doesn't bother communicating with its creator. It's when the app screws up that they get on the phone and start screaming. The official communication I have with customers is through the company's bug application. The end result is all I hear is the bitching and complaining about things the application doesn't do correctly.
If your organization is big enough, try talking to other people that connect to the customers directly - sales, technical support, or field service (if you're a hardware outfit). If you're app is any good at all, you'll find a more balanced view from those folks. Even better, if your industry participates in trade shows or industry conferences, try to go to one of those (or at least talk to the people that go). You then get to talk directly to customers, unfiltered by three layers of phone support and managerial double-talk.
Update: I don't know who univoted you, but I gave you a 5 to balance it. It's hard not thinking users are morons.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Absolutely agree. They need something out of the blue.
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I get a completely different feedback from our users, the ones still employed, they are so pleased they are the ones chosen/capable of using the software they managed to retain their positions. Mind you I have small userbase so when the CRs come in they are addressed rapidly.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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I agree.
I'm usually required to program a "matchbox" so I give a time schedule and that's it... but no,
after the "matchbox" is ready it turns out it should have been an "zero-emissions-nuclear-shoesbox"
and the classic "could you please make the whole box made out of titanium? that's a quick change right?"
So, I really don't like dealing with users, they just keep giving "ideas" that 40% of times are crap and 40% of times
are too expensive to develop (however they still hope you can do these even though they didn't mentioned them
in the initial specifications when the price/time was fixed)
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In my case... the development team, is same as the support team... 
"He that is good with a hammer tends to think everything is a nail."
- Abraham Maslow
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Agreed. In my role as the D.S.J.B.(*) I am responsible for two applications.
The first, and a source of some pride, is a debugging tool we use that monitors communications between the components in our distributed application. This tool uses a lightweight TCP/IP socket connection to each application and service to record trace messages and to send debug commands. Over time it has matured into an indispensible part of our tool set.
The second, a source of embarassment, is our build process. While the process works well, is pretty stable, and is even documented, its construction is horrible. It starts as a Windows GUI app that lets you enter some information, which in turn starts a Windows shell script. The script runs the majority of the process, which may invoke compilers, batch files, the original app with command-line options, or additional applications . Recently I added a Windows service that lets you start and monitor builds remotely. If I ever get run over by a London bus, my advice to my successor is to chuck the whole mess and start over  .
(*) Departmental Sh!t-Job Boy
Software Zen: delete this;
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Yes. You've got to stand behind your work. If you write buggy code, you deserve phone calls at 03:00.
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