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However, since I accepted who I really was last year I've noticed my body language gradually becoming more feminine as I've felt less and less inclined to carry on acting a role which is foreign to me.
This is one of those "nurture" vs. "nature" questions, but I'm quite curious--do you feel that male and female mannerisms are learned (essentially, I guess, through imitation, thus we would have our great-great-great neanderthals to thank???), or are mannerisms that are attributed to one sex more than the other something that you feel comes out of your own natural tendencies (which ultimately could lead to some interesting spiritual discussions--previous lives, soul, etc)?
I remember when I was a kid and I liked to cross my legs in the "girl" style (not knowing there was any right or wrong way for a boy to cross his legs) and I would get teased awfully by the modern day neanderthals in my class. The fact that I can remember this to this day, 30 years later, means that it really had an impact on me, and I'm still self conscious about it.
That leads to another question, which has to do with whether mannerisms are really quite arbitrary, and just happen to fall into "girl" or "guy" mannerisms based on the societal view?
Marc
Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
This is one of those "nurture" vs. "nature" questions, but I'm quite curious--do you feel that male and female mannerisms are learned (essentially, I guess, through imitation, thus we would have our great-great-great neanderthals to thank???), or are mannerisms that are attributed to one sex more than the other something that you feel comes out of your own natural tendencies (which ultimately could lead to some interesting spiritual discussions--previous lives, soul, etc)?
It’s difficult to say really…my guess is that the way we act is influenced both by our own nature and by the way we see our peers acting. For example, I’ve always been a pretty mild mannered and emotional person, and gender issues aside I wouldn’t expect my mannerisms and body language to match those of a girl who was a self confessed “tomboy” (more stereotypes I’m afraid).
Interestingly enough, I’ve heard it said that post-transition transsexuals often act in a more feminine manner than is the norm in female society. I’d say that this supports our desire (consciously or unconsciously) to “fit-in” with our peers. From what friends have said to me I suspect that’s the case with me as well – but I don’t really mind – it’s a reflection of who I am, after all.
Psychology is a fascinating subject, isn’t it?
Marc Clifton wrote:
I remember when I was a kid and I liked to cross my legs in the "girl" style (not knowing there was any right or wrong way for a boy to cross his legs) and I would get teased awfully by the modern day neanderthals in my class. The fact that I can remember this to this day, 30 years later, means that it really had an impact on me, and I'm still self conscious about it.
I do find it highly objectionable when people are victimised because of their interests and mannerisms. When I was at school, I remember quite clearly that anyone with long hair was villified. More seriously, in my last job one guy in my Department “came out” as a cross-desser, and was continually insulted from then onwards – the Departmental Manager being the worst offender. 
Marc Clifton wrote:
That leads to another question, which has to do with whether mannerisms are really quite arbitrary, and just happen to fall into "girl" or "guy" mannerisms based on the societal view?
In the general case, I suspect the mannerisms we adopt are a reflection of both our character and how we see our peers acting. What isn’t always obvious to members of the “other” camp is that some mannerisms arise for reasons of practicality. Your example of the way females cross their legs is an obvious example – the male way just doesn’t work if you’re wearing a short or tight skirt!
Sadly, as we seem to need to separate people into categories based on sex, it then becomes socially unacceptable for a guy to act in a feminine manner, or vice-versa.
Anna ![Rose | [Rose]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
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David Wulff wrote:
it will be like living in an alien!
I must say, regardless of your "bathroom" situation, living in an alien would be a tough task!
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That's not a problem.
If I appear in public as a guy, I use the Gents (distasteful though I find them, it's the sensible thing to do).
If I appear as myself, I use the Ladies.
Anna
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
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Anna  wrote:
If I appear in public as a guy, I use the Gents (distasteful though I find them, it's the sensible thing to do).
Even though I have no inclination to change sexes* I use the ladies myelf whenever I can get away with it without being noticed. Male toilets are an utter disgrace! How can so many people continuously miss the urinals and piss all over the floor? And the smell! There is nothing more nausiating in this world than the stench of stale urine - it literally burns your nostrils. 
* Well maybe if I could actually swap minds with a woman for 24 hours that would be cool - just give me a mirrored wall, a cucumber, and a king sized bed and I'll be happy as Larry all day 
"Life, as well as software, has bugs." - Roger Wright
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David Wulff wrote:
Even though I have no inclination to change sexes* I use the ladies myelf whenever I can get away with it without being noticed. Male toilets are an utter disgrace! How can so many people continuously miss the urinals and piss all over the floor? And the smell! There is nothing more nausiating in this world than the stench of stale urine - it literally burns your nostrils.
I don’t blame you Dave – most Gents are disgusting.
David Wulff wrote:
* Well maybe if I could actually swap minds with a woman for 24 hours that would be cool - just give me a mirrored wall, a cucumber, and a king sized bed and I'll be happy as Larry all day
I’m not saying anything about my future plans.
The funny part is after surgery, I’ll have to use a dilator (dildo in everyday language) for a minimum of two hours a day for the first few months to prevent my new plumbing from “healing”. 
At least one surgeon I’ve heard of advocates using a vibrator instead to make the whole experience a little bit more fun... 
Anna
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
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The funny part is after surgery, I’ll have to use a dilator (dildo in everyday language) for a minimum of two hours a day...
<thump... as Rob falls off his chair>
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
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That's what I thought when I first read about it!
"Doctors orders: buy a dildo and use it." 
Anna
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
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Anna wrote:
The funny part is after surgery, I’ll have to use a dilator (dildo in everyday language) for a minimum of two hours a day for the first few months to prevent my new plumbing from “healing”.
Anna wrote:
At least one surgeon I’ve heard of advocates using a vibrator instead to make the whole experience a little bit more fun...
When are you going to find time to do this? The time has to be >2hrs!
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks
-Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark
I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past.
-Chris Maunder
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Crazy isn't it? I didn't know about this until earlier this year.
I've learnt a lot by reading other people's accounts of their transition and surgery, and the one thing that comes across very strongly is hope. Although the prospect of having such major surgery is daunting, I don't (oddly enough) find it particularly scary. To the clinics that specialise in it, it's almost routine now.
I've said it before though - this isn't a road you walk unless you're really sure about it!
David Stone wrote:
When are you going to find time to do this? The time has to be >2hrs!
I don't have a choice. The recommendation I've read is six 20 minute sessions per day, at 3 hour intervals, which could be a little tricky at work, but I'll find a way.
Anna
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
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Get the hell out of my bathroom. I thought I locked up and turned on the alarm before I left home.
Tim Smith
I'm going to patent thought. I have yet to see any prior art.
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David Wulff wrote:
Male toilets are an utter disgrace!
That always reminds me of Trainspotting where they visit the Worst Toilet in Scotland.
David Wulff wrote:
just give me a mirrored wall, a cucumber, and a king sized bed and I'll be happy as Larry all day
What is it with vegetables? There is a whole industry around REPLACING the common cucumber, so you really should support it David...
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
benjymous wrote:
Saddam Dubbuyuh Hussain?
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I'm jealous - we are expected to wear suits to work  . Maybe it's because we provide online financial services, and have all these financial wallys coming to visit occasionally. My boss even wears a waistcoat with his suit about 3 days a week! 
"How many eiffel towels are there in Paris?"
"I'd say 10."
"Where was the Berlin Wall?"
"Israel"
Stupid People - posted by Loket
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Megan Forbes wrote:
I'm jealous - we are expected to wear suits to work . Maybe it's because we provide online financial services, and have all these financial wallys coming to visit occasionally. My boss even wears a waistcoat with his suit about 3 days a week!
Aw that's a shame.
I think the financial sector is a bit more "stiff" in that regard than others...I've never actually worked for a company that had a dress code!
If I dress up, I'd rather it was when I wanted to, not when I'm told to.
One thing did occur to me though - there's a bi-yearly marine tech exhibition called Oceanology International[^] that we exhibit at. This year the other girl on our team (I was stealthed at the time!) was asked to go on the stand with the expectation of wowing the clients a bit. I was there in disguise, gathering information on competing products and talking to customers.
The next one's in Spring 2004, by which time I'll be well settled into my new role (and possibly not long from surgery, but that's another story), so it'll be interesting to see what the company decides to do with me on that day.
Anna
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
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After this[^] I would expect some useful comments from you here
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Gosh some people have long memories.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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You must have made quite an impression!
"When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
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I was just remembering the funny comment about "looking good" and it took me quite a while to find that thread (and who wrote it) with the great and wonderful CP search.
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There's no real code where I work, nor was there in the previous.
I usually dress well (still without tie) to see a client. The rest of the time I dress as I want, that is usually well enough, but sometimes have the basic T-Shirt. Other people in my company sometimes are dressed well, and sometimes wear trainers and tracksuits.
I've never had to wear a tie in my job, except for interviews.
Computers have enabled people to make more mistakes faster than almost any invention in history, with the possible exception of tequila and hand guns.
- Carl Gundlach
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We don't have much of a dress code here, either. (Although if you wear shorts and have very pale legs, you may be subjecting yourself to taunts and ridicule by your co-workers. )
I usually dress "business casual"... slacks, a button shirt, but no tie, and sneakers as opposed to dress shoes. If I have to see a customer or give an interview or something, I dress up by buttoning the top button on my shirt.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Cool!
'My capacity for happiness', he added, 'you could fit into a matchbox without taking out the matches first'.
- Marvin, the robot.
Amit Dey
sonork: 100:18407
msn: visualcdev
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There's no option, for "No, it hasn't changed".
I think they should always allow a free text option for cases like this and also because these answers are usually much funnier
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Seriously, in all the places I've worked, the rule was pretty much "don't smell bad". 
--Mike--
"alyson hannigan is so cute it's crazy" -- Googlism
Just released - 1ClickPicGrabber - Grab & organize pictures from your favorite web pages, with 1 click!
My really out-of-date homepage
Sonork-100.19012 Acid_Helm
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Michael Dunn wrote:
Seriously, in all the places I've worked, the rule was pretty much "don't smell bad".
Should suggest this on the next company meeting
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But there alway have been those few who violated even this basic rule and got away with it, simply by being VERY good programmers (and maybe low income).
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