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Hi Chris,
Just happened to read your reply (but not even fully) and I'm rushing to work now. I'll write a detailed reply later (dunno when).
I just quickly wanted to let you know that I might have sounded prickly and irate, but whatever I say or do is in the best interest of the site (in my (sometimes deluded) opinion).
Also, it appears that you haven't commented about if or not the new system is a supposed replacement for the threaded style forums... What's your take on that?
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: you haven't commented about if or not the new system is a supposed replacement for the threaded style forums
Let's just say it's a work in progress.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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How about letting the users build their own custom forums. If they want a forum called "C#", they could build a filter for that forum that included any "quick answers" with the appropriate tag. I personally don't care for the Quick Answers feature for a couple of reasons.
0) I don't like seeing all of the various tags (that I might select) mixed together. I might just want to see C#, or WPF, or something like that, not both at the same time, and not the apparent C# "OR" WPF functionality. Having to repeatedly reset the filter to something else is a pain.
1) I don't want people "improving" my original question - or any of my answers. Platinum members should be excluded from this "feature".
I also don't want the threaded forums to go away and be replaced by the Quick Answers.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: 1) I don't want people "improving" my original question - or any of my answers. Platinum members should be excluded from this "feature".
I do not think anyone should be excluded. Platinum members are not Gods. They'll make mistakes too, and they'll leave scope for improvement too.
I've corrected some of the 'platinum members' on a few occasions on the forums when they were wrong.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I also don't want the threaded forums to go away and be replaced by the Quick Answers.
Totally agreed!
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: I do not think anyone should be excluded. Platinum members are not Gods. They'll make mistakes too, and they'll leave scope for improvement too.
BUT as platinum members, we should have something to show for our status as far as privileges are concerned on the site (the modified icon is cute, but really, what's the incentive otherwise for gaining that status if we don't gain something in return for our efforts). Immunity from being "improved" by some nimrod is one of the things I think we should get. If you want to correct me (or discuss something), make it part of the thread, but I really do strongly disagree with the idea of someone else changing something I wrote in a technical forum.
I think we have fewer than 100 Platinum members, so I don't think it's too much to ask because it's a pretty exclusive club.
While we're on the topic of extended privileges, I think we (as platinum members) should have the option of including our site avatar on messages too.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001
modified on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:53 AM
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: If you want to correct me (or discuss something), make it part of the thread, but I really do strongly disagree with the idea of someone else changing something I wrote in a technical forum.
Then, this probably has something to do with the idea of collaborative editing itself, which is how the existing threaded style forums work. I too think that the new QA style is not a match for the existing system (which is the very essence of this thread I created).
But then again, if something of this sort happens, everyone should be treated equally. However, I'll agree if you say that there must be restrictions on who can edit the posts made by whom.
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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If I wanted to look in Stack Overflow for an answer, I would.
I go to CP for the articles and forum info. Without having to do constant searches I can find info. The people here tend to not be complete monsters as well.
So reputation will matter for editing answers and such here? You gain rep by answering things. Now let's look at the flaws.
By having ranking by popularity you make downvoting other people a powerful reputation gaining tool.
2 people post about same answer. Gold member A and Bronze member B.
A downvotes B even though B is just as correct. People see the highest voted response is correct. They vote A up. A goes back and gets rid of downvote on B. B doesn't lose any rep, but A gained a ton because no one bothers to read B's answer as it is "obviously" not as good and A has a bunch of votes. B never gains rep.
I've had this happen in SO to me. One of the very few times I could answer something immediately I was downvoted and then upvoted within 2 hours. The other person that answered after me used this tactic to get their answer more votes.
I don't like Stack Overflow. Heck, the fact that a decent chunk of their answers tend to be "You mean like this. (link to a codeproject article here)" makes me chuckle.
Please get rid of the editing incentive on reputation. Otherwise people will be gaming the system just so they can feel cool for being able to edit things.
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ragnaroknrol wrote: By having ranking by popularity you make downvoting other people a powerful reputation gaining tool.
In fact you lose reputation when you down-vote an article, question, etc. Take a look at the Reputation FAQ[^].
As to your scenario in SO I've had a similar problem. I'm not sure how we can avoid it here however. Users looking for an answer typically try to read as little as possible. They'll often go with the first thing that looks right (or is deemed "accepted" by the question author). I don't see how removing reputation for editing content helps this in any way. Or is that not what you meant?
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Even if I lose reputation, what will I gain from having my answer upvoted?
When given any sort of power over other people some folks will abuse it or at least want it to feel special. Allowing high rep people to edit means those folks will be willing to do tricks to get this special status, even if they do nothing but cackle in a dark room while hovering their mouse over the edit button in something they don't like or a user they don't like.
So in this scenario we have a way to downvote an answer, thereby getting more people to see your answer, who will upvote it. People will be lazy and only read the most popular answer, and often will upvote it too. You can change your vote to a positive after you have gotten a lead and so the damage to your own rep is minimal. And finally if you get enough rep you can just plain edit stuff that annoys you or know you could.
It's a recipe for an abused system.
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There's always the worry of users gaming the system no matter how clever or elaborate the design. What we currently have in place is our best efforts on the matter. But I don't think it'd be a good alternative to allow anyone edit. We want to at least avoid the most problematic users from causing too much damage. This system helps in that direction but definitely does not guarantee it.
ragnaroknrol wrote: So in this scenario we have a way to downvote an answer, thereby getting more people to see your answer, who will upvote it
I'd consider this a bug actually. We have a task (thanks to some member) that will place answers with a vote below 3 beneath answers with no vote.
Hope that addresses your concern. 
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My quick-take on the "Quick Answer" :
1. delighted to see CP innovating in this area !
2. think the current state of the forums needs reform because of :
a. lack of participation
b. dependence on the efforts of a few "heroic" responders like Pete and Dave
c. lack of distributed authority to edit and moderate
d. tolerance for frequent i'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-your-ignorance responses.
e. the regular posting of specific technical questions ... for which there are forums ... on the Lounge such as : [^] by some of the most long-time and frequent CP users on a regular basis : as if the forums do not exist, and in violation of the explicit "social ethos" of the Lounge.
As always, I think innovation will result in some pain, and some chaos, and points, like those raised by Rajesh, are very important.
To those on this thread who be-littled, or down-played StackOverFlow, I say : "you're nuts" :
SO is one of the most brilliant and important innovations in social "community" focused around specific issues ever done, as important in its own way, as Wikipedia and CodeProject : imho far eclipsing anything that came before it like Yahoo groups and such, or MS Usenet technical forums. For me it is fun, compelling, and extremely useful, as much a "treasure-trove" as CP Articles.
Please don't think I am "infatuated" with SO; I think I see a vulnerability there in that there is a dependence on the "Herculean" efforts of a few at the the "guru" level, like Jeff Anderton, and Mark Gravell, and Jon Skeet, and system of "badges" seems kind of comical to me, kind reminds me of the "cub scouts" when I was a young boy. What's obvious to me about SO is that "the grass is always mowed" : meaning a lot of effort in real time is going on to edit content and get rid of crap, and clean-up things : imho sustaining that kind of effort in the absence of monetary reward is very difficult, particularly in difficult economic times.
For Ragnarknroll and Thiru, who posted comments based on the very real "dark side" of people's behavior on voting or reward-based forums ("gaming the system"), I'd argue that going overboard in anticpating the "worst possible cases" in users' behavior is as much a mistake as, in software design, building elaborate code to handle the strangest thing stupid or insane users could do to prevent errors.
Let the future come, and let's not under-estimate the intellectual horsepower in the CP community, and the technical expertise in CP core itself, to rapidly innovate and adapt to both promote evolution towards the goals we value, and to create the interactional equivalent of an "immune system" that will handle the "worst cases"
best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
modified on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:54 PM
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BillWoodruff wrote: To those on this thread who be-littled, or down-played StackOverFlow, I say : "you're nuts" :
SO is one of the most brilliant and important innovations in social "community"
A somewhat subjective opinion, and I don't see this as a compelling reason to follow their model. I like the CodeProject forums specifically because of the way questions and answers are displayed. I don't particularly like the SO model, but I have no problem with SO per se. Those of us who prefer the forums are not "nuts", we just have different preference for how we view and respond to Q&As.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
A somewhat subjective opinion, and I don't see this as a compelling reason to follow their model.
Hi Richard,
What opinion is not subjective ? I never suggested that I think CP should follow the SO model : you are "reading that into" my words.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
"Those of us who prefer the forums are not "nuts", we just have different preference for how we view and respond to Q&As."
Again you are "reading something into" my words that is just not there. I did give some specifics for why I thought CP's forums need "reform," in the context of applauding the innovation and change that's going on in the structure of CP forums right now. What do you think the reasons are for CP's forum structure being changed ?
Your excerpt from my post re SO is trimmed so that it is more easily taken "out of context" : I also expressed some doubts about whether SO could sustain where it's at now as it scales up even further.
To say that one should not underestimate the importance of the smashing success of SO, and its technical "brilliance," is not to make a statement about CP at all !
I'd expect Chris and team to come up with something original and brilliant in this area, and I am sure they will. But its "birth pains" and "growing up" pains may be ... some pains, as is the case with all real innovation.
best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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In IE, I could previously save article attachments by right-clicking on the attachment, and use IE's SaveAs to save the attachment. Now I don't get the file, but rather an Error.htm. If I do the same from Opera (using Save Linked Content As) or from FireFox (Save Link as), I have no problem. Do I have an issue with my cookies in IE or something? Anybody else see the same?
Proud Programmer!
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Can you please try again? I've reverted some changes that were made.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Hi Chris, seems like we're back on track - at least from here. IE 8, Opera 10.10 and FireFox 3.5.5 all work now! Thanks and Happy Holidays!
Proud Programmer!
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I have found quite a lot of older articles on codeproject and thought it would be nice to filter on the date of the article. thanks...
michael judy
m_judy@hotmail.com
"According to my calculations there is no problem"
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You already can. Choose 'Advanced Search'
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Ok, ummmm, where is that at. I for the life of me don't see any thing titled advanced search.
michael judy
m_judy@hotmail.com
"According to my calculations there is no problem"
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I am thinking about the area under articles not the forums. I see that filter. Not really a problem at all. Just a thought. thanks again, Mike
michael judy
m_judy@hotmail.com
"According to my calculations there is no problem"
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The area under the search box on the homepage, or on the search page[^]?
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Thank you for your replies....
michael judy
m_judy@hotmail.com
"According to my calculations there is no problem"
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Last week my repuation allowed me to edit Q&A entries but now, apparently, I can't despite my reputed reputation having risen.
Has something changed or are the hamsters on the lash again?
Panic, Chaos, Destruction.
My work here is done.
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Yes these rules have in fact changed. The Quick Answers FAQ[^] has been updated here at the office but hasn't yet made it to production. Basically, the ability to edit now depends on your level of certain reputation types. Your level can be any of:
- Bronze
- Silver
- Gold
- Platinum
For any of the following reputation types:
- Author
- Authority
- Editor
- Enquirer
- Organiser
- Participant
Refer to the Reputation FAQ[^] for which reputation points apply to which reputation types.
You can't yet view how many points you have for each reputation type but we'll definitely work that in. Sorry for the confusion. 
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