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Doesn't that just suck? I mean, they don't mandate or budget OT BUT if you generally have more work than you can finish in an 8 hour work day, "They" bust your chops for OT or "They" bust your chops for not completing your work.
Having worked in IT all of my adult life, I can definitely say that some problems just take more time to solve, especially if there is any customer service (this could mean supporting co-workers) involved.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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We have so many projects in the queue and there is no way to get them all completed. Last I heard, there were 118 request submitted and I average getting two a month completed. Typical government standards.
However, I do not mind not working overtime as I get to spend a lot of time with my active kids (single dad raising three) and some time for myself. It's also easier scheduling for evening events (cub scout meetings) and not have to worry about work being a conflict.
I think I need to push for the typical goverment employees standards where one guy works on a pothole while the other six just watch. One programs and the other's just rest on their shovels on watch!
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Hey can you sign me up? I need a job where I can get paid decent, stay closer to home, and have some sort of life. - especially now that my child is out of the house and I can be single instead of a single parent.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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The pay is very low. However, the work is perfect. I get to use all the new technologies for development and we are always getting new hardware and the latest Microsoft software.
I work for a state-of-art library so there is a lot fun working here, plus we implement new technology all the time. Although it's the lowest salary I have had, the trade-off for creating new applications, the technology and the 40 hour work week are worth it (plus great benefits).
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I bet you still beat my paltry pay. I'm a Tech Writer III and get paid Tech Writer I salary. I can't move to a city that would support me - heck I can't even move to the city where I work...Gotta love America (and I do!).
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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I just read one of your other posts: You have a 4 hour commute - WOW! - that is way too long. Mine is 20 minutes one way. What city do you work in?
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I work in Shreveport Louisiana and unfortunately it is 2 hours (as long as I follow the speed limit) from my house to my office. Just one way. Factor in morning traffic if I don't get off to an early start and that adds about 20 minutes. I generally have to be at work by 6 or 6:30 AM. And I'll get off around 5 to 5:30 PM. Evening traffic is worse - I think all the idiots are out and about by then. There have been times it took me an hour just get from one side of the city to the other all by interstate - so make the commute back 3 hours on those days. Blech. So I try and stay an extra hour after to avoid traffic and if work permits.
Current gas prices don't help. When I took this job, it wasn't so dire financially. Gas was fluctuating between 2.00 and 2.15
I've thought about getting a job closer to home which would mean a complete career change - but that would literally drop me to around 10.00 an hour and that's if I'm lucky..
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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That kind of commute is a killer. One job I had was an hour, and I felt so wiped out when I got home, I had no energy or motivation to do anything around the house.
I have no idea you can do that commute every day without going bonkers.
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Yep been doing for going on 3 years now...and I am bonkers...desperately seeking another solution LOL.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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I hope you get some sort of travel compensation ![Rose | [Rose]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
Yusuf
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It's not worth it to me. If I worked somewhere and they started requiring OT (paid or not) I would quit. I realize I make less money than I would if I did work OT, but I'd rather be happy.
Basically, the time after 5pm is worth more to me then anyone I know of is willing to pay.
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Here, here! 
I agree but I can't be as strict. I mostly avoid OT but sometimes end up having to work it... But If I do, it is minimal.
Regards,
Frank
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I suppose if I had a life after 5 pm, I would feel the same way as you. As it stands 4 hours a day in my life is already wasted commuting, and I work an 11 hour day - four days a week, so, that really leaves me 7 hours left in a day to basically sleep. I might as well work an extra hour. That way I can have a guiltless 3 day weekend and little spending money. 
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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You need to find a new job or move closer. 4 hours?!
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Well I don't have the resources to train for a new career that would pay remotely what I get paid now which would enable me to possibly move closer to home. It's the traditional catch 22 situation that keeps the lower middle class beat down :P.
And yes 4 hours...2 down and 2 back. Mostly 45 and 55 mph two lane highway.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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I don't have anything against OT, just I'm against working OT when I'm not getting paid for it. If I'm getting paid hourly I don't mind a couple of extra hours. (Never had a programming position that paid hourly.) However, when I'm on salary, I put in my 40 hours and call it a work week. I get the same amount of money if I work late or not, so I see no reason to work extra hours.
jgehman
Software Engineer
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This requires a great deal of concentration and effort, and - most important - try to get the code running as soon as possible. This sounds obvious?
Critical: Select your team, or the people you work with. If you can't, go military.
Do not work with posers, primadonnas or leeches. Cut them immediately and get them assigned to simpler and easy measurable tasks.
Sounds brutal? It's the contract, the project and your ass in line. (Cockroaches survive even to a nuclear hit, and oh boy, I've seen an innumerable count of such specimens. They simply don't care and wait for the moment to go home.)
Buy time (1): avoid "Preciousness"
I don't care about axioms (prototype before code etc.), diagrams, UML, Visio, Gantts, Excel, meetings (especially meetings!).
These *maybe* were ok when all the code was in-house. Now you have to assemble 2-12 APIs in a working product. You barely have the time to understand them.
Remember: the customer will pay for the result, not for the artistic impression.
Buy time (2): Control meetings time. Avoid them if they are meaningless and a JIRA substitute.
Once a week may be fine, but a daily meeting is an insult to a professional coder. (Unless you want to have some 9-to-5-ers).
Fight hard to managers, and FROM THE DAY ONE tell them.
Get them to watch Al Pacino in Heat telling to the street guy "don't waste my motherfuckin' time". With the harsh voice (only Al Pacino can do that, but you can practice home).
Especially after a braindead meeting, nuke them.
Get the formula from the hat. 10 devs * 2 hours meeting = 20 hours = 2.5 man days. Or 8-10 bugs fixed. Or +2% missed because of this only meeting. (And who the f**k does something until 18.00 if the meeting ended on 17.00?). Take this, Mr. Manager.
Tell them the cost of their changes in the middle of the development process. It is really amazing how they like to hear themselves to attach .NET to everything they get out of their mouths. And this when deadline is on 2 weeks and half of the customers are already angry.
If they insist on creeping (or become rude and *boss*), shut up and start looking for a better job.
Buy time (3): "big happy family meetings"
Let's face it. What the hell can be the relation between one coworker and another? (Unless they were already long time friends before walking together into a company). I really don't care if a colleague wants to go to Tae-Bo, plays WoW or likes cappuccino. (Me, I like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple, black coffee, I'm a heavy smoker, with a some sort of Taliban beard, I'm playing Starcraft with all races etc. Useful informations for public, right? I bet 99.092837676% of the readers barely can wait until they meet me. )
(These are real examples. One from an anti virus company, one from a "professional grade database tools" company. I quit them both (7 months and 8 months) and now I found another company where, if someone opens the mouth, he/she really have something to say.)
Purpose
GET THE JOB DONE.
(That's the second criteria of Joel Spolsky hire/no hire workflow[^]).
Why?
That's what the customer payed (or will pay) in the first place! If you go to a diner to have a coffee and a soda, you want a coffee and a soda, right? No frills, no curly ideas, no promotions, no two-for-a-price-of-one. You want what you ordered.
It's the same on software. You want the client to come back again? Respect him, his time, and what the customer wants.
How? Attitude
It doesn't matter if you're looking on 1-2 months before deadline.
Act like you're obsessed.
Act like the deadline is tonight.
Insult colleagues that interrupts you in the middle of debug if necessary, and even throw objects after them while you watch them running at suddenly amazing speed (Ok, don't do this. Although I can think of 712 multiple cases when probably such thing was completely justified).
Avoid mistakes: don't do code rewrite before you have a working version. Don't refactor, especially if time is critical, and always is. Don't even remove warnings. /W1 if necessary. Everything to reach the goal.
How? The algorithm
Seriously, nobody knows better than you, the developer, how much this is going to take.
1. Tackle the new/hard APIs and get a prototype running.
2. Fix the bugs.
3. Complete the UI interaction and remove hardcoded things.
4. See pt. 2.
5. i18n.
6. See pt. 4.
7. Remove obvious warnings. See pt. 6, 4 and 2.
8. Do the rebuild and final tests. Commit.
9. Ask a colleague to checkout/update and to the build again to avoid missed files etc.
Done.
10. After done, sit back, relax, try to tackle hard warnings, /W4 etc.
Warnings as errors? You're kidding, right? Office warning "result still unsigned", remember? Third-party libraries, external libraries where you see from the start the dreaded "class X passed as reference to X" etc. Countless. You may end up in even more dangerous adventures trying to get rid of such things.
Aftermath
Perhaps here and there there will be "yes, it's great, but we'd like ALSO this feature" etc.
The word ALSO completely changes everything. The customer/manager does not have any chance to yell/pick on you/be rude/invoke deal break/kamasutra etc.
You did the job. He owes you now, and is almost forced to treat you like a human being (if he/she is really good  ).
Kids, do not try this at work. But it works for me.
Nuclear launch detected
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What about updating a 24/7 live system during off-hours with bi-weekly updates?
Todd Smith
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What about it? It's still an 8 hrs/day job, I suppose. Even with 3 shifts.
Nuclear launch detected
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I get paid overtime when we have a callout for an emergency, but it often takes more hours in a day than are available in the regular schedule to finish what I need to get done. These hours I don't charge to overtime, or even straight time, unless I'm specifically asked to stay late.
I've always considered one difference between an hourly grunt and a professional to be the way time is charged. The hourly employee is hired to fill a slot for a programmed period of time each day to do a job for which he/she is qualified (or can be trained). A professional is hired to provide expertise as needed for a variety of applications. Sometimes this calls for long hours, sometimes not, but the rate of pay is determined by the value of the knowledge, not the amount of labor contributed.
Some employers abuse this professionalism by demanding and expecting continuous overtime for a straight-time salary; that's a good situation to leave immediately, as it's not only abusive, but insulting. Fortunately, mine appreciates extra effort and returns the favor with flexible hours, unofficial comp time off, and the occasional bonus. That's "professional" as regards an employer.
"A Journey of a Thousand Rest Stops Begins with a Single Movement"
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I was amazed at the number of "votes for working overtime at ones choice without compensation".
I'm lucky in that the company I work for indirectly encourages compensated overtime. The more the better. You won't get recognition for "above and beyond" efforts otherwise. We're very "positive praise" starved.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey©.
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As a salaried exempt worker I do not get paid for over time. I get paid the same if I work 10 hours a week or 80. The trick is balance. If you work for good people in a good environment its works well. If you work for A holes well that never works, at least for me.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin
Buddha Dave
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I can understand that as a "salary exempt" employee. I spent a few years designated as such in another company. We at least accrued comp time that could be taken when there wasn't a deadline or a rollout taking place.
I was more less writing under the assumption that people answering were in the "should-be-paid-overtime" categorey.
S.Nowlin
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I'm a Techwriter Monkey -- handy, just less useful than the Bathroom Monkey.
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See Roger Wright's reply - these fall into the professional category and the operative work should be occassional. This is precisely what I would expect from a group of developers.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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It would be interesting, to me at least, to see the results of this survey based on location. To compare the working cultures of say the UK (where I live) to the Australia (where I'm moving in two weeks).
- Dy
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