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Palavos wrote: You didn't get the meaning of what I said.
On the contrary.
Palavos wrote: What I am trying to say is that there is a reason why Microsoft leads the way, why Microsoft leads this poll, why you are HERE (and not at a Sun developers forum) to write comments, why more applications and games are developed for Windows.
I don't do .NET. I'm at CP because of CP and its community. I don't visit other MS sites or newsgroups. Point is, it's a CP thing and not a MS thing. Which btw, CP is growing to use non-MS stuff now. And, I'm still gonna be here.
And, more apps are developed for Windows because Windows is popular. This has less to do with MS' support for devs than it does people wanting to sell their software and people just being used to Windows because that's what's already on their machine.
Palavos wrote: And THE MARKET HAS DECIDED that Microsoft is the leader in the developers world.
No, you decided that. Most code out there is non MS specific. I won't let the facts get in your way though.
Palavos wrote: You can comment as much as you like on that, but given the market data and the sheer market numbers (i.e. applications / games developed every year for every platform), it can easily be proved you are wrong.
Once again, apples and oranges, when defending your love for MS. We're talking about what they've done for devs, not the popularity of Windows. If you're going to be a zealot, at least stay focused.
Peace. 
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Again you missed the point. And just answering a "on the contrary" won't be eligible as an answer this time...
First of all, what Microsoft does for developers is the reason why Windows has so many applications and, thus, why Windows is so popular! All these things are interconnected and not seperate. More apps are developed for Windows, Windows get even more popular, so even more apps are developed for Windows etc etc... This loop would not however be possible if Microsoft was not the best in supporting developers!
Secondly, you call me a zealot (which is offensive and my level of education won't let me answer in a similar manner), but you cannot see facts laid in front of you crystal clear: you say that more applications are indeed developed for Windows but then you say that most code is not MS specific? Maybe if I would say that it is Windows-specific you would be ok with that?
"I won't let the facts get in your way though." does not do anything but show your apparent lack of arguments.
Last but not least, what does it mean that "I don't do .NET, I'm a CP" ??? Codeproject was for YEARS a solely Microsoft-related developers source! Only NOW, as you say, does CP start hosting source for other environments as well. And certainly this is a good thing, I agree on that.
Peace yes, but without calling each other names (i.e. 'zealot').
Happy coding! 
modified on Monday, May 19, 2008 7:44 AM
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Palavos wrote: First of all, what Microsoft does for developers is the reason why Windows has so many applications and, thus, why Windows is so popular!
Which shows you know nothing of the DOS/Win31/Win95 days. And should you not get the correlation. Win31 and Win95 without doubt made MS what it is today. And that was before their had uber documentation or support (for free) or even a decent platform to dev on like today.
Palavos wrote: This loop would not however be possible if Microsoft was not the best in supporting developers!
Oh, I don't think they have bad support for devs, but I don't think they're the only meritable company in this regards.
Palavos wrote: Secondly, you call me a zealot (which is offensive and my level of education won't let me answer in a similar manner)
You treat me like an idiot with big, bolded wording, that clearly do nothing but express you don't pay attention. To each his own. Your apparent lack of understanding of anything regarding development outside of MS makes me question your level of education.
Palavos wrote: but you cannot see facts laid in front of you crystal clear: you say that more applications are indeed developed for Windows but then you say that most code is not MS specific? Maybe if I would say that it is Windows-specific you would be ok with that?
What facts? Your words? Rather than engaging in zealotry, try doing research. Here's just one for starters, lets talk about language popularity...
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html[^]
Palavos wrote: Only NOW, as you say, does CP start hosting source for other environments as well.
This is only because Chris Maunder is a Windows developer himself, so it makes since for him to start with what he knows. That's common sense and has less to do with how uber MS is with devs more to do with the duh factor. So, once again I repeat myself to the blind.
Palavos wrote: Peace yes, but without calling each other names (i.e. 'zealot').
I'm game, but if you can't take the heat then don't treat me like idiot though just because you act like a zealot. 
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I missed the part where you explained why you are for 6 YEARS member of an Microsoft-specific developers community and - at the same time - talking in such a negative manner. Maybe you just forgot to write it.
I develop since the Commodore era and won't take personal comments you make, which certainly don't honour you. There is no "heat" and we are in no "battle". And yes, there are more words in the language than "zealot" and "zealotry" to use! We are in a managed forum though and continuing like that will not be accepted.
Next offensive message will not be answered and will be reported.
Accept the result of the poll and peace and happy Windows/Java/Carbon/etc coding!~ 
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Palavos wrote: I missed the part where you explained why you are for 6 YEARS member of an Microsoft-specific developers community and - at the same time - talking in such a negative manner. Maybe you just forgot to write it.
Or maybe you can't read. And, it's been longer than 6 years. CP didn't track that time in the beginning. Also, I'm not a zealot, so I'm not afraid of MS sites.
Palavos wrote: I develop since the Commodore era and won't take personal comments you make, which certainly don't honour you. There is no "heat" and we are in no "battle". And yes, there are more words in the language than "zealot" and "zealotry" to use! We are in a managed forum though and continuing like that will not be accepted.
So I can talk down to you as long as I don't use the word "zealot"? I mean, that's what you effectively did to me. But, I guess it's only what people do to you that matters in your reasoning.
Palavos wrote: Accept the result of the poll and peace and happy Windows/Java/Carbon/etc coding!
It's skewed. If Sun had that poll on their site, it would have Sun out on top. Anyone with half a brain should be able to recognize this.
Thanks for the free one vote.
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I'm glad you stopped the offensive language.
As I said before, happy coding and happy MS-related communities memberships!
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I've got to say, I particulary love how Microsoft have consistently helped web developers by producing successive versions of IE that make no effort to be standards compliant. That makes my life much easier.
PHP Programmer in an MS World
modified on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:18 AM
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You have a point there. Unfortunately, nobody is perfect
Microsoft has been for years neglecting the development of the Internet Explorer and that not only hindered the efforts of developers but also allowed Firefox to grow.
Hopefully this has changed. Even after the new IE7 was released (which was much improved from the previous version) and a renewed interest of MS for the Internet, it is said the the next IE version will not be as late as the last one. Remains to be seen...
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>Offers fully free tools (Visual Studio etc) that go beyond a simple IDE to just type in code.
>- Develops these tools continuously (every 2 years a new version).
Sun does (Java Studio) and IBM does (Eclipse).
>- Evolves the programming languages in a unpresendented pace. Please try and find another example at >other company that creates and evolves programming languages like MS has done with C#, Linq, etc.
.NET is largely just a copy of what Sun did with Java several years ago.
>- Listens to the developers. Give me an example of another company conducting so many developers >activities. MS is currently in the process of upgrading MFC just because it saw how many
>developers were >using MFC!
Again, both Sun and IBM. Remember; Eclipse is mostly financed by IBM.
>- You want to write a program for Windows? You go on and do it, in an intuitive and pretty easy way. >The APIs are out there, tutorials are many, communities supported by MS exist in hundrends, MS even >gives away whole ready-made projects with the source code to use and modify! You want to develop for >Android, iPod, Symbian? Try it and come back... [Cool]
Java has still more open source class libraries available than .NET and C#.
Have you ever been at SourceForge.org?
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You talk about other companies also havings IDE offerings. Great! I never said they don't! We are talking about which company offers MOST support to developers. And that would be MS according to my oppinion. And this is the reason why more programs are developed for Windows and, thus, why Windows is much more popular than other Operating Systems...
Cheers!
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- Offers fully free tools (Visual Studio etc) that go beyond a simple IDE to just type in code.
Visual Studio is not the only IDE out there. There are many other IDEs out there some of which are superior to Visual Studio in many respects. In the Java space alone you have Eclipse, IDEA and NetBeans. All of these IDEs are not just simple code editors.
- Develops these tools continuously (every 2 years a new version).
Doesn't every other developer?
- Evolves the programming languages in a unpresendented pace. Please try and find another example at other company that creates and evolves programming languages like MS has done with C#, Linq, etc. Also compare that to other companies (like Apple) who are stuck in programming ideas and notions of the previous century (try to develop for the iPod in objective-C for example...Carbon and locomotives was the idea of travelling back in the 1800's)
I'd agree with you that C# is one of the most productive programming languages around at the moment. It is also my personal favourite. However the .NET framework is drastically inferior to the Cocoa Framework. I'm not the biggest fan of Objective-C but Cocoa is an example of how an API should be done. Objective-C has had many of the C# 3.0 features for years too.
Carbon is a deprecated compatibility API brought over from the classic Mac OS. At least Apple deprecates old APIs though. Microsoft still actively uses Win32 which is much much worse than Carbon.
- Listens to the developers. Give me an example of another company conducting so many developers activities. MS is currently in the process of upgrading MFC just because it saw how many developers were using MFC!
MFC is another example of Microsoft's complete ineptitude in implementing a decent API. They always aim to let the poorest of programmers be (somewhat) productive and in doing so alienate all those at the mid to expert level.
- You want to write a program for Windows? You go on and do it, in an intuitive and pretty easy way. The APIs are out there, tutorials are many, communities supported by MS exist in hundrends, MS even gives away whole ready-made projects with the source code to use and modify! You want to develop for Android, iPod, Symbian? Try it and come back...
I've coded on all the platforms you quote with the exception of Symbian. Cocoa Touch on the iPhone and Java on Android are far more productive than .NET is on Windows. They may have steeper learning curves (especially Cocoa) but once understood are incredibly good environments.
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I absolutely agree!
I love Microsoft. 
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NOTE: all this is IMHO.
With MS being at 68%, and the next one up, Google...at a whole 13%....wow..just wow. If people still haven't noticed, MS hasn't done anything new in a decade. They are doing what the market wants, they are following the lead of others, and that doesnt always bring good results. What new has come out of MS' doors (no pun intended..)? I can't think of a single innovative thing. And please, W?F is definitely nothing new...just a marketing gimmick. Zune, Xbox, XNA, post 2.0 .Net, Vista...you name it, they're simply catching up to others, or desperately trying to compete on _every possible market out there_. Things don't work this way. If you want to make OSes, go ahead. Spend a crapload of your company resources on that, and make your OS better with every next release. Not more glamorous, but more functional. You wanna make consoles, fine. Music players - its your call. Actually, go ahead and produce all of the above. But make something _new_. Make it interesting to people. Just because I now have not 10, but 20 different music players to choose from, doesnt make me buy the one _your_ company makes. It makes me _not want to get one at all_. Why do we think that success is when we can compete?
MS needs no invest a LOT more money into its research lab. Plus, of course, cut down on the amount of managers it has (true for every other IT company out there too, btw). I mean, if every second person is some kind of Babuk Abdulahman (no offense meant to Indians..honestly. You guys just seem to have taken up all the management spots..and telemarketing ), how much will a company get done? Thought as much.
I dont see much good in the post-Gates era, as now MS is mainly a money-making machine (and not just for themselves..for EU too).
This is actually somewhat related to a recent topic in the lounge, about how lacking CS education has become now. I personally blame outsourcing for that, but it is coupled with RAD tools, and a new (relatively... in the past at least decade) fad to hire only people that say things such as "familiar with design patterns" in their CV's. Well, good for you, I'm sure you bring about zero innovation to the company with a CV like that.
[I could go on, but I need to go study, so I'll just end here. But I'd like to know..of people who voted MS, what are your reasons?]
And anyway, I voted Oracle...their database owns. Apple is destroying the market with their products, Google is, well, actually doing pretty well, but it needs to have a better roadmap, not just random things coming out. The rest, well, they're just a different sector of IT....
"impossible" is just an opinion.
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you said Apple is destroying the market with their products.
Well yes and no. They may be selling a lot of system but most people are running windows in some form on them.
When prediction serves as polemic, it nearly always fails. Our prefrontal lobes can probe the future only when they aren’t leashed by dogma. The worst enemy of agile anticipation is our human propensity for comfy self-delusion. David Brin
Buddha Dave
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Question: You think doing the most good for Software Developers is to make inovations?
P.S. Didn't Microsoft work on this .NET thing? 
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Only because they were forced to. I'm sure they would have been happier to continue piking off Sun as they have done so well in the past. Even BASIC wasn't origionally Microsoft's.
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Actually, MS is a company. They want to make money!! But still I really like VS, and .NET (especially 3.5 with WPF).
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People don't care if it's new or not, it's not very relevant for business. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if they ripped .NET from java. What matters is that it works, which it does, and so does Visual Studio, Windows, Office, SQL Server, ASP.NET etc etc.
Wout
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Totally.... I abandoned Java just because there was no normal tool to work with it.
Great language... But to develop practically impossible. I end up using Microsoft Visual Java to develop program that I run on AS400.
No wonder with C# i completely forgot about Java. I remember I would mostly struggle with the tool than writing an application.
As for C# and Java looking the same... What do people expect. Look at cars that exist today... They all have 4 round tires and 1 steering wheel.. It's just nature's law...
The programming language is 20 English words (if, then, else, for...). Of course it will be the same. It's .NET framework, development tools that matters and so far Microsoft does much more superior job comparing to IBM or SUN.
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"If people still haven't noticed, MS hasn't done anything new in a decade."
Are you kidding... How about .NET? I worked with Java, IBM tools (Visual Age), Borland (JBuilder, Borland C++, Delphi) and bunch of other tools/names I forgot already....
They all are no match to Visual Studio, I abandoned Java just because there was no normal tool to develop application on.
As soon as there was C# I switched from Java and never looked back.
I knew Assembler (for 8086,286,386 processors) and already forgot, I used C++ mostly for some time. So i've been around the block for about 15 years now... And can definitely compare...
Right now my primary tool is Visual Studio Express (Web and Desktop) and C#. I use C++ just to do staff I can not do with C# (which is really rare, like to write ISAPI extension.)
I do not care that C# looks like Java. It's like phisycs. You will not see 2 different airplanes. They all look the same. Boing, McDouglas... You do not expect for Boing to have 2 wings and MsDouglas planes to have only 1. There is only one most optimal shape for the plane....
The same with programming language....
George.
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Anton Afanasyev wrote: If people still haven't noticed, MS hasn't done anything new in a decade.
Recently .NET 3.5 SP1 Beta came out while I was still learning WPF! I think they do lots of new things!!
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For me, the only conclusion about the poll is that "The code project" mostly has MS-Windows-related developers.
Another recent poll showed that nearly no unix developer frequent the site.
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Just the way we like it.
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How do i delete my account?
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Johan Boule wrote: How do i delete my account?
By paying a $99.99 fee to Microsoft.
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