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...is to start pigeon-holing creative people into "specialist" roles - which is exactly what bureaucrats love.
It's a good thing to be recognized for what you know and can accomplish as a developer, but a completely bad thing to be bound by those very same things.
edwin
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I agree, this just a way to expand bureaucracy. Once implemented, everyone has the same diploma and therefore the same accomplishment. What do bureaucrats know about software quality? Recognition comes from experience and personal accomplishment; not from a piece of paper or a paid license.
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Nonsense, having a specialty in something doesn't mean you forget everything else in the world. You can still think up all the stuff you want.
Jeremy Falcon
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Except that an individual can pass an exam, the contents of which invariably end up on the internet somewhere.
Software development or programming is a creative profession (personally I think it's more akin to being a musician or an artist), and the qualities which differentiate developers are intangible to say the least, and not easy to quantify or codify into a set examination.
I used to be pretty keen on the MS certifications, untill it I realised that my clients either:-
a. weren't interested in them
b. didn't know anything about them
c. saw MS acreditation as a negative rather than a positive (because of the reasons I've mentioned and others)
I think that were certification is more usefull is for project management and design methodologies, you know, some kind of certification in PRINCE, CMMI, XP etc etc. These at least equip developers and programmers with fundamental knowledge of software design methodology and how and why business projects are run.
Which brings me to my last point  , programming and software development, for my money, is all about foundation knowledge, operating systems, programming languages and frameworks are all satelite to and build upon this foundation knowledge, couple this with the right mindset and, more often than not, you end up with a great software developer.
In the long run however, and rather sadly, they will probbaly become the norm, because things that certifications satisfy tick box culture.
Phil Harding.
myBlog [^] | mySite [^]
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Phil Harding wrote: Software development or programming is a creative profession
But you need a lot of knowledge on how to build software and manage the process around building software. This increases the chance of success for you to build the right thing on time and within the budget of your client. And most of this knowledge is hard to learn when you dont follow some kind of course. Certification then proves you have the skills you need for building great programs.
Phil Harding wrote: I used to be pretty keen on the MS certifications, untill it I realised that my clients either:-
a. weren't interested in them
b. didn't know anything about them
c. saw MS acreditation as a negative rather than a positive (because of the reasons I've mentioned and others)
Microsoft certification isn't needed to be a successful developer. You can be equally succesfull using Java. These certifications only proof you can build software using the tools from microsoft. Having certifications for CMMI or XP proves a lot more, those are basic things you need to know to be more successful.
Phil Harding wrote: Which brings me to my last point , programming and software development, for my money, is all about foundation knowledge, operating systems, programming languages and frameworks are all satelite to and build upon this foundation knowledge, couple this with the right mindset and, more often than not, you end up with a great software developer.
Yep, your healthy thinking sure does a lot on this matter. You should always keep that even if you use TSP, PRINCE, CMMI and more of that stuff. Sometimes these methods are overkill.
Phil Harding wrote: In the long run however, and rather sadly, they will probbaly become the norm, because things that certifications satisfy tick box culture.
I doubt that MS certifications will overrule all other diplomas and/or certifications. I think enterprises are better helped with employees trained in the general software engineering skills, like CMMI and/or PRINCE.
WM.
What about weapons of mass-construction?
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And to back that up,
A former college went on a MCAD .net course, 1 week (6 Days) solid, thet certification was basically handed out whether you passed or not, when he came back from training, I don't thing he was any wiser about .net.
MCAD/MCSD are a farce, you don't know whether they've been achieved by legit circumstances.
Blogless
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norm.net wrote: MCAD/MCSD are a farce, you don't know whether they've been achieved by legit circumstances.
The same could basically be said for just about any formal training. I've met some people with "Computer Science" degree/masters that couldn't program their way out of a paper bag.
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it shows people you might know a thing or 2 on the subject you got certified in :-b
IM PROUD TO BE A GMAIL;
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I think many programers would like to consider themselves to be flexible enough to handle any task thrown at them. You wouldn't go to a dermatologist for heart surgery, but I'd like to think that I could handle a variety of projects and not pidgeon-hole myself into one field.
Perhaps a distinction might be made between game developers and business app developers.
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I completely agree with the last part of your post...
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kryzchek wrote:
Perhaps a distinction might be made between game developers and business app developers.
That's no different than this pigeon-hole crap you're talking about.
Jeremy Falcon
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Glad to see you took your a**hole pill today.
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If that's the best reply you can come up with then you are obviously a waste of my time.
Lemme guess, the word "crap" upset you?  No don't bother with a reply because I'm done.
Jeremy Falcon
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I would prefer to keep that in the private sector. Let reputable companies and organizations (i.e. mysql) create their own certification. Industry is generally self-regulating in that respect. If someone is certified by Oracle or Microsoft, you know that they have knowledge about the system in question. If, however, someone were certified by "Joe's SQL Certifications and Pawn Shop", no one would take it seriously.
I also think that computer science education needs to be reconsidered. My undergrad degree was a four year waste of time. I probably could have learned all of that material in a year or less. Furthermore, I spent two years on general education that my high school had already taught me. Interesting new survey question: Do you have a degree and do you actually find it useful?
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Degrees are useful for imigration purposes.
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland
Colib and ilikecameras.
K(arl) wrote:
oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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So is marriage 
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Indeed. I am weighing up which is the easier route 
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland
Colib and ilikecameras.
K(arl) wrote:
oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Paul Watson wrote: Indeed. I am weighing up which is the easier route
Get a degree, immigrate, marry a citizen, become a citizen. Isn't that an age-old trick?
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Depends what you want, citizenship or work permits. Citizenship though would be nice, but I can get that by marriage faster than by getting a degree.
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland
Colib and ilikecameras.
K(arl) wrote:
oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Go for a degree, marrage is a one way street!
bum... and I thought I´d got rid of all the bugs 
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I have to agree with you on that. The only time I really wished I had a degree was when I considered emmigration.
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How sure are you about that? 
SkyWalker
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Very. Governments are lagging behind corporates and require degrees for immigration purposes. Without a degree you will find emmigrating a lot more difficult.
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland
Colib and ilikecameras.
K(arl) wrote:
oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
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Oh, I see.
What about that: you have a very high degree, you already managed to get hired in your dream country, and after a while they tell you they do not give a penny on your degree as they do not like to pay more for more educated people?
(It's just a question concerning, let's say, imaginary characters  )
SkyWalker
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They don't do it already ?
Well you actually have to choices:
1) quit the job and find a new one
2) continue working for less money
Generally speaking degree doesn't mean a thing. Degree in anything. I can easily go and buy a bunch of diplomas if I needed to. The knowledge of that subject - now that's what matters.
--------------------------------
Human stupidity is infinite.
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