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Experience sreejith ss nair28-Jul-05 2:43 sreejith ss nair 28-Jul-05 2:43  The best way to learn new things is from Experience Sreejith Nair [ My Articles ] Absolutely Amazing! Christopher C Johnson22-Jul-05 17:49 Christopher C Johnson 22-Jul-05 17:49  I started attending college, then got busy with my career and haven't gone back yet. I have had the toughest time finding a job without having a bachelor's degree. Yet I see that the majority of developers consider their self-training to be the most beneficial education. I have read numerous books, articles, and everything else I can find to help my career as a programmer (and have been programming for fun in my spare time), but cannot get a job. Why do so many employers require bachelors degrees for programming positions? Re: Absolutely Amazing! cpfisher25-Aug-05 7:28 cpfisher 25-Aug-05 7:28  In my opinion, most programmers learn the most from self-training. But, I also believe that without proper knowledge of the theory behind programming, some may get confused. Also, I consider my bachelors degree in computer science a way of showing that I can also be taught. Besides, mostly what you learn in college is where to find stuff and learn about it in your spare time. Perhaps that is why is employers look for bachelor's degrees over "non-educated." Just a thought. If you don't want to attend 4 years of college, perhaps try getting an associate degree. Many employers will look at that info along with experience outside of the classroom. Craig All of them. Shog915-Jul-05 7:29 Shog9 15-Jul-05 7:29  Everywhere that i found opportunity for education has been valuable to me on the job. Which isn't to say that there weren't a lot of places where i really didn't find much. But self study was good for learning the foundations of programming, college was useful for obtaining cheap software and that piece of paper that convinced employers to even look at me, on-the-job formal training was useful in learning the culture and values of the company, while informal training has taught me most of what i know about the non-coding aspects of this work, and offsite training has been great for getting up to speed on a new subject quickly. I guess that leaves out highschool/university/post-graduate, but i haven't done any of those, so can't comment. You must be careful in the forest Broken glass and rusty nails If you're to bring back something for us I have bullets for sale... University education ! Ghasrfakhri14-Jul-05 10:08 Ghasrfakhri 14-Jul-05 10:08  University education Is only wasting time. Iman Ghasrfakhri Re: University education ! Shog914-Jul-05 10:44 Shog9 14-Jul-05 10:44  Ghasrfakhri wrote: University education Is only wasting time. Balderdash! It's also drinking. And if you think they're one and the same, you need to do some more of both. Firefox? CodeProject? GreaseMonkey? A better Life? Re: University education ! Anna-Jayne Metcalfe15-Jul-05 3:20 Anna-Jayne Metcalfe 15-Jul-05 3:20  Not true. I learnt so much about live music and social drinking there... Oh and it got me my first job too. Anna Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Re: University education ! Ghasrfakhri15-Jul-05 7:35 Ghasrfakhri 15-Jul-05 7:35  Iman Ghasrfakhri Re: University education ! Anna-Jayne Metcalfe15-Jul-05 8:00 Anna-Jayne Metcalfe 15-Jul-05 8:00  Hey it worked for me! Anna Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Re: University education ! Paul Watson15-Jul-05 22:22 Paul Watson 15-Jul-05 22:22  It gets you Visas regards, Paul Watson South Africa PMW Photography Dan Bennett wrote: He could have at least included a perforated line for easy detachment - that would be intelligent design Gotta be on-the-job Todd_s0214-Jul-05 8:01 Todd_s02 14-Jul-05 8:01  The schools (college included) generally don't teach you things you -really- need to know to be a successful engineer. Things like version management. Working in groups. Dealing with and anticipating changing requirements. Dealing with legacy code. Why coding standards matter. Working under an impossible deadline. Working with ineffective management. Inter-office turf wars. Layoffs. etc etc. You know - all the crap no engineer WANTS to deal with but HAS to. If I ever end up with a teaching job, I'm going to throw that stuff in. 1) Sometime during the semester, I'm going to have a security guard come in and randomly pick 4-5 students and escort them out, and tell the remaining students that those people were dropped from the class and get no credit. They just learned about layoffs. 2) I will give them a large project, and halfway through I will change the requirements in a way that would cause problems with existing designs. They just learned not to trust requirements as absolute and to think ahead. 3) I'm going to have them write some code with unclear requirements, and not give them enough time. I will then require them to add an additional feature, except I will give them another student's code to add it on to, rather than their own. That should cover about everything else.. Re: Gotta be on-the-job Bob Stanneveld14-Jul-05 21:45 Bob Stanneveld 14-Jul-05 21:45  Guess that you start learning when you finish your education and start working. Behind every great black man...             ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother Blog[^] Re: Gotta be on-the-job Toby Opferman17-Jul-05 13:15 Toby Opferman 17-Jul-05 13:15  4) Give them a large project that requires 4 people but say due to school grading resources you can only allow 2 people to do the work. And 1 of the students is bran new to the class, just joined in the middle, so he has a lot catching up to do and the time frame for the project is 1/4 of what it would have taken for a group of 4 who know what they're doing. 5) Give them a project that is required to implement support for a new device; but don't ever give them the device. 6) Have a lot of classes and class meetings on what decisions to make but don't ever make any decisions, so nothing is ever accomplished and then just have follow up classes and class meetings on those meetings to help decide what should (have) been done. Then don't allow anyone to take ownership or be accountable for any failure. Grade the guy an "A" who has the best excuse for their failure or who helps to contribute to not making any decisions. Give the guy a bad mark who attempts to come to a decision and label him as troublesome. 7) The best programmer in the class has to fix all the bugs and pick up the slack from everyone who doesn't know what they're doing. Have that guy fix everyone else's code inthe class and never give him a new assignment. Then give all those who failed and had the most bugs new architectures to design. 8bc7c0ec02c0e404c0cc0680f7018827ebee Knowledge Inheritannce Kiran Kumar Singani14-Jul-05 2:10 Kiran Kumar Singani 14-Jul-05 2:10  Knowledge always inherited from the previous year see below class diagram class HS: public Knowledge { }; class Graduate: public HS { }; class Trainee: public training,public Graduate ,public Websites,public Books,public Discussion { }; class Pl:public Trainee { }; class PM: public PL { }; SO in my views Previous knowledge is require for Upgrade new technolgies with Regards....... Kiran Kumar SIngani Re: Knowledge Inheritannce Balamurali Balaji14-Jul-05 3:03 Balamurali Balaji 14-Jul-05 3:03  Your inheritance hierarchy is OK. But, don't forget that the derived class objects can be accessed with a base class pointer which decides the fate(!) during runtime. regards, balamurali balaji WWW.DotnetSpider.COM College is behind the technology Bob Stanneveld13-Jul-05 23:56 Bob Stanneveld 13-Jul-05 23:56  Hello, I started programming when I was in high school. I took a computer science class and there I learned to program in some Java dialect developed for high schools. I didn't want to join the army anymore after getting interested in that. (To be hones, I wanted to be a developer or something computer related in the army, but I was too young.. ). Anyway, after learning some Java, I immediatly started learning C++ on my own. I don't know why I took the one of the most difficult languages, but I don't regret it. I'm actually very happy that I know C++, since I don't wan't to be some sloppy object pascal kiddy I see in college everyday. In college I learn nothing new. Everything they teach there (at least the programming courses) is already boring. I've read a lot of articles and some books that tought me more than I could ever learn in college. They tend too keep things simple and since they don't have very large funds to invest, they have to teach stuff that they get sponsored. The only reason why I stay in college is because I need a degree to get some work around here. No employer is going to believe someone who has 4 to 5 years of C++ experience on his resume with no college degree at the age of 20 - 21. Behind every great black man...             ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother Blog[^] Re: College is behind the technology Balamurali Balaji14-Jul-05 3:08 Balamurali Balaji 14-Jul-05 3:08  Ofcourse, you are right. When you are out in the job market, all of the items - age, degree, technical skills, experience - should be in the basket. regards, balamurali balaji WWW.DotnetSpider.COM Re: College is behind the technology Bob Stanneveld14-Jul-05 4:57 Bob Stanneveld 14-Jul-05 4:57  I think that too, but imagine that you learn almost nothing and the things you do learn, are so simplistic that even children with the age of 8 can understand. I don't know about you, but I stongly get the feeling that I'm wasting my time there! It's only the paper I need. Behind every great black man...             ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother Blog[^] Re: College is behind the technology Bob Flynn14-Jul-05 7:20 Bob Flynn 14-Jul-05 7:20  Why not take more challenging classes. I can't imagine any college cmputer language course could be difficult. As far as I am concerned once you know one language, you have the understanding to learn any of them, it is just a matter of becoming familiar with syntax and then libraries. But you could take classes that exercise your thought process a little more. Engineering classes will do that, and you may even discover some applications to program (robotics, signal processing, control systems, simulation, etc). Im am sure others in around here could make a couple suggestions. Bottom Line: Do not allow yourself to stayed bored. BTW: The Army does not have computer developers. They have users of some applications, but no developers. If you want high tech go talk to the Navy. Re: College is behind the technology Bob Stanneveld14-Jul-05 21:31 Bob Stanneveld 14-Jul-05 21:31  Bob Flynn wrote: But you could take classes that exercise your thought process a little more. Engineering classes will do that, and you may even discover some applications to program (robotics, signal processing, control systems, simulation, etc). Im am sure others in around here could make a couple suggestions. If only they offered me some choices... Well, in my graduation year, they offered me 5 different classes from which I had to pick three. I remember that one of the courses was about telecommunication. From the description, I understood that they would teach how great UMTS is and why it is that great. I've read in some techonoly magazines that UMTS flopped and that Ultra Wide Band and WiMax are going to get interesting... Bob Flynn wrote: Bottom Line: Do not allow yourself to stayed bored. Don't worry, I have enough projects of my own to keep me excited. By the time I finisch all my projects on my todo list, I'll be retired.. Bob Flynn wrote: BTW: The Army does not have computer developers. They have users of some applications, but no developers. If you want high tech go talk to the Navy. I thought that they had some computer science lab of the ministery of defense here in Holland, but for some reasons I'm happy that I was too young back then. Behind every great black man...             ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother Blog[^] Re: College is behind the technology Michael A. Barnhart14-Jul-05 9:26 Michael A. Barnhart 14-Jul-05 9:26  Bob Stanneveld wrote: College is behind the technology So what, A good school will teach you to think and expose you to ideas (language, art, etc..) Make sure you can understand concepts and basis for what ever technology you run across. I do not mind getting old. It beats all the other options that I can think of. Re: College is behind the technology Bob Stanneveld14-Jul-05 21:41 Bob Stanneveld 14-Jul-05 21:41  Michael A. Barnhart wrote: So what, A good school will teach you to think and expose you to ideas (language, art, etc..) If I would have to bet my money on the education that I get in college, I would know only little more about constructors and garbage collection in Java. Oh wait, they also tought me the UML notation . They didn't teach me how to get a decent design for an application. In college they also tend to focus more on the programming itself instead of the complete process, which is the interesting part.. Behind every great black man...             ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother Blog[^] Re: College is behind the technology Timothy the lion15-Jul-05 11:48 Timothy the lion 15-Jul-05 11:48  im am 14 with no experence so don't trust me on this BUT I learned about architecture and design by finding a bunce of architectures and finding there good idea(usualy not idea's take netbeans ide forinstance nbm is great but paths are way too limited and it is hard to edit core stuf like the code editor. mfc's doc view architecture is cool BUT serialisation was idiotic and activex\owl was implamented badly making plugin's hard to write it was a good architecture but implimented badly .net is very abstract this makes for infinite fexibliulty but get's you down almost to c level though it does have good ide's some programs have no architectur and you kinda have to globe thing's on herte and there my education 8'th grade - 6th,1st ie my 6th and 1st grade teachers should be shot i have some experience in c++ java more in c# les in vb ect ect even less in asm more in snoblo and logo mostly self taugh though my dad taught me about variables why would you need colledge when you have the internet? hit next and pray Re: College is behind the technology Bob Stanneveld17-Jul-05 23:33 Bob Stanneveld 17-Jul-05 23:33  snobol wrote: why would you need colledge when you have the internet? Language for example. I don't know your origin, but your english is pretty bad. Pardon me if you're native language is not english. You also talk about design, but designing real applications (not the smallest tools) takes more than just a library like MFC. If you develop a large application with MFC, or any library, as it's starting point, you set up your own downfall. Designing an application is an art by itself. If you really want to learn how to design an application, do some google searches about tiered applications, tiers, n-tier There are also a lot of other design methods around. Have fun! Behind every great black man...             ... is the police. - Conspiracy brother Blog[^] Re: College is behind the technology Timothy the lion18-Jul-05 8:41 Timothy the lion 18-Jul-05 8:41  I am a native speaker of English I just didn’t try very hard. I know I don’t have great English but that is for a lack of trying not a lack of being taught. My goal with language is to communicate not to sound professional. I was joking when I said “why would you need college when you have the Internet?” My point of my post is that I believe I have a fairly solid understanding of how to design an application well. I overlooked the fact that what I think of mfc is actually the Microsoft Visual studio 97 mfc application template. My point was that by looking at open source examples like the netbeans IDE I can get a fairly good understand of what to do and what not to do when designing an application. Does that clarify my post? PS is my English better when I do try? hit next and pray

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