|
Yes so did I
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
|
|
|
|
|
Well, just had a first attempt before I have to go and do some work, and if it stays like it is, no, sorry, it's a stinker! 
(Not sure if you were complimenting OG for his clue or asking if mine will be nice!)
modified 10-Aug-21 9:38am.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Greetings!
After spending more years that I care to discuss in a procession of unrewarding, soul crushing jobs, I am thinking of making a change to programming for my sunset years, and I'm looking for advice on the best ways to make that happen.
A bit of background; in the late 80s I signed my life away for a student loan to attend a "technical college" where I learned Pascal, C, 8086 Assembly, dBase/Clipper, and some RPGIV. I was, however, never able to actually land a programming job, and since food and rent cost money, I moved on to other things. (I don't call the experience wasted, I met my wife there.)
However, I'm just at that point where I am likely to go completely around the bend if I don't mmake a positive change. And while there seems to be a truckload of advice for younger people out there, I'm finding very little for older people such as myself. So, begging the indulgence of the gallery, I've some questions I wish to pose:
1. I am no spring chicken. While the word "junior" in a title would not bother me in the slightest, how likely are hiring managers going to be to hire a middle aged 'junior' programmer?
2. As near as I can tell, my best bet for languages would be C#, Java, C++, and JavaScript. Am I missing something there which would make me more employable? (of those 4, the only one I feel like I might struggle with is C++, not so much syntax wise, but just because of how rich the language is when used correctly.)
3. I am not above a boot camp style program with an ISA, but experiences with this soft of arrangement seem to be mixed. Can anyone who's actually gone that route relate their experiences? And would having a boot camp on my resume (as opposed to just being self taught) help or hinder my efforts?
I'm sure that there's an important question I may not be asking, so I'll again beg your indulgence in that and ask that if something jumps out, please speak up.
I also note that most of those who read this have jobs and responsibilities, so I understand if you don't drop everything to answer this. I honestly expect that the whole process is going to take at least a year, so its not like this is urgent. Meanwhile, I do thank you for your kind attention!
|
|
|
|
|
1) I am over 40 and started a new job two years ago (and probably not the last). So... there are still managers that valuate experience (not necessarily in exactly what the job is about).
2) It is mostly personal taste. Try all, see what you like more and get good at it. I personally think that with your background and what you say about c++, you will probably like c# too, and I with it you'll have covered a wide range of possibilities.
3) Boot Camps have not a good reputation over here. I suppose there are some good ones worth the money, but I think most of them are just a legal version of a scam. There are enough good resources out there to learn about many things. A good book, a couple of online sites and practice, practice, practice...
I don't know how fast you can learn and how good you were back at college, but many here will tell, that knowing the language is not necessarily the most important thing. Logical thinking, problem solving, abstraction, creativity, a bit stubbornness... those skills are the ones that can make the difference.
As I said, the first you should have clear is to know what you want to do and which of those languages is the one that you like most. Then get a compiler for it and start with something online, if you think "yeah, that's it" then buy a good book about it and start doing more complicated stuff and do not hesitate to come back with questions when you get stuck.
Good luck
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
|
|
|
|
|
Cue Guns N Roses: Welcome to the Jungle
Kevin, I'm an old fart (just turned 0x3C) and have been programming professionally since 1980. What you've described is certainly worthwhile and doable, especially if you're presently unhappy. I won't lie to you though, my gut says it's also not going to be nearly as easy as a 20-something fresh out of school would find.
Part of that arises from your time limit. I assume you do want to retire in the not-too-distant future. A common primary element to entry-level positions is that you are trainable, and will be around long enough to put that training to use. How much training and how long to use it depends upon the business' needs. The companies interested in you will be different if you're retiring in 10 years versus 5.
Another part, which you have no control over, is an industry-wide distaste for older programmers. In my case the assumption is that while I may be highly-skilled, those skills are only in older technologies. It's also assumed my thinking will be inflexible when it comes to working with other developers and business processes. Since you're starting out you don't have these issues, but hirers may assume you do if they discover your age.
My thinking is that you will need to find a 'niche' position, a job where the business needs programming, doesn't mind that you're inexperienced, and your *cough* maturity *cough* is appealing. If you can generalize (do IT stuff, networking, set up new PC's, install/maintain apps) in addition to the programming even better. A guy I worked with found a company where he is the sole tech guy in the place. He's revamped their IT setup and been programming applications for their CNC machines (they're a high-end tool and die sort of place). He's much happier now than he was when he worked for us.
Good luck!
Software Zen: delete this;
|
|
|
|
|
I had programmed for 10 years or so coming out of college with a degree in CS then had a nasty divorce and got out of programming for 13 years.
I spent 2 years learning and catching up with all I missed and finally landed a job programming in a small shop.
2 of us were hired me and a kid just out of college. I couldn't keep up and became miserable and after 1-1/3 years they let me go.
These young men just out of college are bright and quick and it's very hard to compete with them.
Good luck!
The less you need, the more you have.
Even a blind squirrel gets a nut...occasionally.
JaxCoder.com
|
|
|
|
|
I really hate to dump on your enthusiasm but I would think you have buckleys chance of breaking into large company development, they have too many young, cheap and enthusiastic fodder to entertain an older entrant. Besides you probably would not put up with the sh*t some companies throw at juniors.
Go with Gary's idea of finding a small organisation where you can fit in as the IT guy, learn the ins and outs of setting up and maintaining small networks and systems then move into development work.
The idea that you will become conversant with a language/technology within a year may be somewhat optimistic.
I do wish you all the luck you can get.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
|
|
|
|
|
You might check out platforms like OutSystems.com or SalesForce.com.
They are more solution oriented, but you might find them interesting. They have two different approaches.
|
|
|
|
|
I'd look to the industry/industries in your procession of other jobs - and try to find ways to leverage any domain expertise you've picked up through that time.
Who are the vendors with products that specialise in those domains and how can apply your domain knowledge.
Maybe it leads a little more to a non-programming but still software related role:
- testing/validation
- design/workflow/user experience/business process analysis
- implementation or project management
- documentation/training
Of course, you didn't say what area you soul crushing jobs were - may well be one of the above...
|
|
|
|
|
Based on my recent experience job hunting, it seems JavaScript is the big one. C# with SQL (and Azure) has demand. I've found that in general, companies are shunning senior and fresh junior developers; they'd rather underpay mid-range developers with 5-10 years experience (who also won't make waves.)
One challenge you'll run into are hiring managers worried that you're after their job.
|
|
|
|
|
First the bad news: ageism is definitely a 'thing' in IT. Even those of us with many, many, years of experience can struggle to get work. You are right to fear that many hiring managers will put your CV in the 'No pile' after a 30 second scan.
On the up side, if you listen to the 'industry experts', (and that's not always wise!), there's a big skills shortage in the IT sector.
I agree with other posters: finding a small company that needs help with IT, may give you a way in - but, be careful that it's not a way in to something that is not going to give you the opportunities you are looking for.
I would definitely look at (free) on-line courses as a starter. This is not a recommendation, but I used Codecademy, (back in 2012), to learn PHP and found it very easy. But that may be because PHP is quite similar to my 'normal' programming language.
Good luck.
|
|
|
|
|
Look at local job listings -- what skills are requested? Let that drive what you decide to learn.
You have a year? Take some programming courses at a local community college (or the equivalent). I suggest JavaScript, SQL, and one of C# or Java. Additionally, get books likes SAMS Learn XXX in 21 Days. The books are not all the same quality, but contain organized lessons which get you into the the basics of a language.
Why actual courses? Night courses are often available so you may not have to disrupt your normal life. Also, the time span of a semester provides the time to think about what you're doing, not cram a language into your head and hope you can actually use the syntax.
This is where bootcamps fail -- they address the least important part of learning to program -- the language itself. Your ability to think and use the tools properly is important, not the syntax.
Write a real program. I've written and re-written an address book program in every language I've learned. I know the requirements really well, know what it needs to do, and it covers UI, DB, and everything in between.
You have ~30 years of doing something else? Leverage that if you can -- you are a domain expert in some field(s), so look for IT jobs related to those field(s). Being able to talk to the customer intelligibly using words they understand is a very marketable skill.
Consulting/contracting. Ageism, IME, is a lot less prevalent in contracting. But it's different from having a steady paycheck, so ya gotta prepare -- both mentally and financially for the differences.
These days remote work is more common -- a friend was laid off from a manufacturing firm after nearly 30 years (place was sold and cut up). He found a remote position AND he's on retainer with the owner of his old employer to help with systems the new owners do not understand.
|
|
|
|
|
Hey Kevin,
I'll echo a few of the previous comments. Ageism is rampant in IT. Most large companies are looking for younger talent. But all is not lost, I think you need to change your focus. I started with with the programs you learned, working on mainframes, then transitioning many times to different platforms. I am currently working on a C#/Blazor application. I think you will find breaking into "modern" application development will be difficult, but, there is another sector that pays very well, and is desperate for new talent.... Cobol. Banks and large organizations are trying to break free, but Cobol programmers are literally dying off. Younger people aren't interested, but it might be perfect for you.
Mark
|
|
|
|
|
You certainly wouldn't have a lot of young competition with COBOL, and the language has been updated and you'd be using modern editors, so it wouldn't be as annoying as it was in the 80's.
Learning to read COBOL code and figure out what it's doing would be a very useful skill- especially paired with SQL. They may be desperate enough to let you work remotely, too.
|
|
|
|
|
2. These languages are quite fine
Regarding 1. I'm sure there may be some bias depending on where are you located but I believe you'll be able to overcome it! Good luck with that!
|
|
|
|
|
Like they say in real estate: location, location, location.
I had to reinvent myself.
In the first case, I started as a customer service rep in a big box store, which allowed me to apply for an IT job in "head office".
In the second, all my work was remote; leveraging mickey mouse freelance web site jobs into good contracts that lasted several years.
You sort of make your own luck.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
|
|
|
|
|
I had a similar path with a couple of years (late '80s) of CS classes learning most of the same languages you mentioned. Like you, money got tight and I dropped out and got a 'real job' doing manual labor on a factory floor. (fiberboard shipping containers actually) After 10 years of back breaking work with constant overtime, I received a golden opportunity that allowed me to go back to school full-time and finish my degree. I could go on and on about how amazing it was that in the span of 10 years, the whole computing landscape had changed...I could now write and compile programs in the comfort of my own home, anytime I wanted! Programming had changed from procedural to object/event driven. It was revolutionary! It was good to be back.
Now back to your dilemma. My opinion is that if you had the aptitude to learn programming 30 years ago, that you still have it. If fact, given the advancements in IDEs and the vast knowledge base available these days, you will likely find modern programming to be easier and will pick it up quickly.
As for getting hired as a 50+ year old, you may have to settle for a small or startup company. That is what I did 20+ years ago. It's not an easy path, but it can be extremely rewarding if you can stick it out for the long haul. If it doesn't work out, at least you've gained some real world experience.
You are on the right track with C# as it's the most widely used language for cross-platform or windows development. Since so much new development these days is web-based, JavaScript is also a must, combined with straight up html and CSS. Throw in some SQL and you can call yourself a full-stack developer!
Now, how to actually learn how to do this new stuff. It all depends on how you learn. Start with MS Visual Studio 2019 Community (free), work through some beginner tutorials, then pick a personal project. You've gotta start somewhere. Since you've already found CodeProject, you know that this is a great place for tutorials, articles, advice, and to ask questions if you get stuck. 
Good luck and welcome! 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
"Hope is contagious"
|
|
|
|
|
I'm fortunate in that if people don't know my age, they take me for 35 - 40ish. It depends on whether or not I'm clean shaven at the moment. I'm not greying up top yet.
My retirement time frame is, at the moment, no less than 18 years. I intend to draw max SS, which means not filing for it til 69 1/2. Not that I mind - I'm sure ill enjoy a few months of doing nothing, then will go quietly to pieces unless I find something to do.
Thanks all for your comments and encouragement!
|
|
|
|
|
Like others have said, leverage your domain expertise as much as you can.
You may find it difficult to find a job with only a junior programmer skillset in your arsenal. But programming skills combined with an (extensive?) domain knowledge and other skills you've already acquired may tip the scales in your favor.
In any case, learning a programming language is not the hardest thing you'll face. Especially since you have at least some background in programming. IMO the real issue is to learn to solve problems, implement your design (solution to the problem) with the language / toolset you're using, and learning to write clear, maintainable code (i.e. to organize your code).
One approach you may consider:
- write a useful program related to the domain you know a lot about (and your potential employers know at least something about)
- start with it as soon as possible.
- publish it at the GitHub.
This approach has its pros and cons. Here's just a few:
+ it is easier to ask help if others can see your code
+ you can ask more experienced people to evaluate your code (and give you advice on how to proceed.)
+ when you apply jobs, you have something real to show for
+ it enforces you to pay attention to practical issues
+ you'll learn your tools in process
- you'll better not show a crappy code to your potential employers, so
- this is very demanding and the learning curve is steep
- it is hard to pick a problem to solve (not too simple, not too big/complex)
Also, the time you have given to yourself (a year), is a stretch, even if you make learning this stuff your 'day job'. I guess its not entirely impossible, but man, you better not count the hours.
I am experienced programmer (20+ years), but I still learn a lot by reading (good and bad) code other people wrote. You can find good open source projects from the GitHub for this purpose. Maybe even a one that is somehow related to the problem you'll decide to work on.
Finally, in your position I would familiarize myself with TDD (test driven development) at least to some degree. Not because you'd need to learn about testing as such (you'll need to, at some point), and not because every employer expects that (they don't), but because it is a good way (IMO) to learn practical problem solving and drive home some important aspects of software design in general. (Even nobody expects a junior programmer to be able to design even a modest scale production quality software system, you'll inevitably do small scale design every time you write code).
Hope this gives you something to think about, even if you'll end up doing something entirely different.
modified 11-Aug-21 6:28am.
|
|
|
|
|
Learn something like Python or Java and go teach a high school class. You only have to work 9 month out of the year and you will have your summers off. You don't have to be an expert -- after all you are only teaching high school kids. Have fun with it. "Da doo ron-ron-ron, Da doo ron-ron" (From the movie Stripes) ![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif)
~d~
|
|
|
|
|
etkid84 wrote: You don't have to be an expert -- after all you are only teaching high school kids.
As there were no high school kids that could beat the hell out of many of the users here... 
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah, except I have neither a university degree or teaching credential - both of which are required to teach in high school. And you don't get to teach, like, just one course.
I love the thinking, bit its just not practical.
|
|
|
|
|
|
This answer is going to be different than most you would find here.
You mentioned that you learnt RPG IV in school.
That is a language in use on IBM AS/400 (now, iSeries) computers.
Billions of lines of code exist in that language.
The iSeries computer systems are treasured by companies that use it but they cannot find replacement programmers, just like you can’t find COBOL programmers anymore.
Check out the local computing scene. See if you find any companies using the iSeries computers. If you find one, talk to them about an opportunity to prove yourself as a competent RPG IV programmer. Look for AS/400 users groups and such fora to find out who these companies might be.
They may be desperate enough to give you a chance.
If they do, you will be set for life and will not have to fear competition from young whippersnappers with resumes sporting Python, C++, Java, Clojure, Go, Rust, etc.
Best of luck in your endeavors.
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
