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I probably agree with you, but I can't actually follow your train thought.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: I probably agree with you, but I can't actually follow your train thought.
So you (probably) agree without understanding what I say?
That's the best compliment of the year - tx for the sentiment, and drop a line if you need my (free) help - though seeing your rep, you don't need it 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy no, I had trouble following your rant.... not just the other guy - maybe semantics.
Arrogance is not the same thing as competence. Ponder that.
First rule of management: hire people smarter than you.
Second rule: fire the assholes.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: I can't actually follow your train thought.
I agree with that part. 
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Programming isn't a challenge
True, programming isn't a challenge, but it sure is a challenge to figure out WTF the person who did the programming was thinking, as most "programmers" I've encountered are, well, programming-challenged.
And that includes numerous third party packages and API's I've had to work with over the years as well. 
People seem to confuse programming with algorithm and architecture design. Algorithms and architectures can definitely be challenging. Once figured out, yeah, the programming is usually significantly less challenging.
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Marc Clifton wrote: but it sure is a challenge to figure out WTF the person who did the programming was thinking, as most "programmers" I've encountered are, well, programming-challenged.
Don't waste time; ask what it is supposed to do, and stop the digging into some Egyptian tomb of old knowledge. Find out what is does, and replace it within a day or two.
Marc Clifton wrote: And that includes numerous third party packages and API's I've had to work with over the years as well.
Their limitations aren't (prolly) stopping your salespeople from promising the sky. Let them keep their promises or shut the F*** up.
Marc Clifton wrote: People seem to confuse programming with algorithm and architecture design. Algorithms and architectures can definitely be challenging. Once figured out, yeah, the programming is usually significantly less challenging.
I happen to like those two area's, but it is not challenging. I know what I am doing, just like the surgeon who is going to cut into you. If your vacancy says you looking for someone who thinks that's a challenge, I WILL publicly point you out as a company that is looking for a cheap noob.
If you one of the companies receiving a letter from me looking for a job, then shiver.
I had it with the nonsense, and will call out anyone who provides it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: ask what it is supposed to do
Real life example: Hard to do when it was written in Ruby by a programmer that no longer works at the company, there is no documentation, and I'm the only other dev that's even ever worked with Ruby.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: but it is not challenging. I know what I am doing
I've had to design some algorithms that nobody, even PhD level people weren't able to solve. Granted, by the time you get a PhD you approach every problem with the hammer you know, but still, this stuff was freaking complicated. And quite frankly, I had no idea how to approach the problem, but because I kept an open mind to crazy ideas, I was, and still am, the only person to have come up with a workable implementation that the company uses to this day.
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Marc Clifton wrote: I've had to design some algorithms that nobody, even PhD level people weren't able to solve.
Yeah, that would be a challenge.
Not one I would fancy taking; usually just doing office-automation, which is the most common development work around here ever since the demand for "websites" dropped. The place where you use common patterns, without calling it R&D. That's usually not something that requires a Mark Zuckerberg.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Arrogance may be fine if you work alone, but mostly others are involved. I can tell from experience that it's pretty annoying when people are too arrogant to take good advice. The best developers IMHO are the ones that doubt everything they do, and double check to test everything works. So my motto is: don't be arrogant !
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Exactly right.
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RickZeeland wrote: that it's pretty annoying when people are too arrogant to take good advice.
Good point
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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RickZeeland wrote: The best developers IMHO are the ones that doubt everything they do
Then I must be a really good developer.
Nah, I doubt that.
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In my experience, arrogant people are often people who try to stealth their lack of self-confidence.
"Five fruits and vegetables a day? What a joke!
Personally, after the third watermelon, I'm full."
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I'm confused.  Are you actually professing to be arrogant, or railing against others whom you perceive to be arrogant? (and getting the jobs)
If it's the former, then you are a first...I've dealt with lot's of arrogant people, but none of them ever actually came out and admitted it.
If it's the latter, I'd be careful advertising myself as arrogant...nobody likes a dick. 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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More railing against recruiters who think they know more about my job than me
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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There is a very big difference about confidence and arrogance. I am never going to hire an arrogant, because as good as they think they are, they usually do more harm than good.
An arrogant developer does not listen to others, it's toxic for the team and think they are better than anyone else and think they are always right, despite have lots of similarly intelligent minds counter arguing.
So if you think you're good enough and have concrete and clear arguments to defend your point of view (instead of saying because I say so) during brainstorming, discussions and disagreements, then yes, I would love to hire you (not that I am hiring anyone now).
Eddy Vluggen wrote: If you think you can find someone better, then please do.
There is no such thing as look for someone that is the best. When I look for candidates I look for someone that knows his stuff, that can work well in a team, that can acknowledge that there may be someone better than him in one particular area of expertise. Nowadays if you're only a developer the best you can be is mediocre. It's not only about programming. Anyone can learn to program and the "challenge" as you say, is not there.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: it's mostly a boring thing
If you think it's boring, why are you doing it? Most developers I know say it's fun. It does not need to be a challenge to be fun.
Challenge comes when you need to transform something complex into something simple and it is a multi-disciplinary resolution. It starts with problem or use case that is very complex and you engineer it to make it simple for everyone involved: The stakeholders and the development team (which may include decisions on logical, solution and topological architecture).
Now it bottles down to how can you add the most value on delivering a secure, tested, simple and accurate solution for the problem at hand. How can you help deliver the most value to the customer. It's important at this point to not be "arrogant" and think you know best than everyone combined, but rather be "confident" to propose and express your ideas and point of view in away that you will not only bring the team on board but will extract the best value from the it and help deliver the best solution as the result of a combined effort.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Fabio Franco wrote: An arrogant developer does not listen to others
If you don't listen to others, you'd be severely limited. Most learning in a classroom requires one to listen. And sometimes you're so stuck that even an outsider can get you unstuck with a suggestion.
Fabio Franco wrote: it's toxic for the team and think they are better than anyone else and think they are always right, despite have lots of similarly intelligent minds counter arguing.
Arguments should be weighed on their merits. If you don't then the whole arguing thing becomes a waste of time.
Fabio Franco wrote: Nowadays if you're only a developer the best you can be is mediocre. It's not only about programming. Anyone can learn to program and the "challenge" as you say, is not there.
A programmer and a developer aren't the same thing; and for an outsider, what I do is boring; if it were sexy, we'd be talking about generics and interfaces at parties.
Fabio Franco wrote: If you think it's boring, why are you doing it? Most developers I know say it's fun.
I like boring! Most of the bosses I know don't like surprises either, especially if it involves a deadline. Boring is predictable, with known results. Boring things (and people) can be relatively fun too.
Fabio Franco wrote: It's important at this point to not be "arrogant" and think you know best than everyone combined, but rather be "confident"
Even arrogance has its limits; also, the manager often has more knowledge about the project than me, since they also know about the financial aspect of the project and the position of the customer. Most devs also have something they specialize in, and even an arrogant brat can't learn everything.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: If you don't listen to others, you'd be severely limited. Most learning in a classroom requires one to listen. And sometimes you're so stuck that even an outsider can get you unstuck with a suggestion.
I guess that this mindset already sets you apart from an arrogant prick.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: what I do is boring; if it were sexy, we'd be talking about generics and interfaces at parties.
Good point  . I did already participate at very boring party where the subject came up
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Boring things (and people) can be relatively fun too.
I guess I misinterpreted you on that one.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: even an arrogant brat can't learn everything.
The brat will bet to differ. hahaha.
===
In the end I think I now understand your rant. When it comes to recruiting it is very difficult to distinguish arrogance from confidence. That's when they way you communicate and interact with a recruiter can make a lot of difference. Not that there aren't terrible recruiters out there, but the process should be somewhat an enjoyable exchange of experience, not a battle.
When you believe the recruiter is being a dick, I would just end it there. It's a waste of time.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Fabio Franco wrote: I did already participate at very boring party where the subject came up
It's nice to have someone to talk to about those. One of the reasons I log into CodeProject nearly daily
Fabio Franco wrote: When it comes to recruiting it is very difficult to distinguish arrogance from confidence.
Didn't look like that, apparently some people can see it by the way you sit down.
When complaining about it to a (non-IT) friend, she noted that even good recruiters are human and can have a bad hair day. I s'ppose that's true.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: apparently some people can see it by the way you sit down.
Some people reading skills which are hard to rely on, but I don't really believe this unless I can see some hard evidence and research. Having that said I do have gut feelings about this kind of thing, but it's not only hard but I also don't like to judge, I may be wrong and unfair to someone.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: even good recruiters are human and can have a bad hair day.
I also suppose so, but even then, I believe they won't really change their core behavior. They may be a bit harder on the candidate, but they won't go from a fair person to an unfair person, for example.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Arrogant? No, I'm humble. In fact, I would say no-one is as humble as I am! 
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
modified 8-Oct-19 8:57am.
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Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Programming isn't a challenge, it's mostly a boring thing that takes a lot of time
I'm truly sorry for you, that every job you've worked has been garbage.
Programming is a challenge, because it's solving problems. If the problem's already been solved, then I'm not solving it again myself, I'm import solutioning.
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Asday wrote: Programming is a challenge, because it's solving problems. If the problem's already been solved, then I'm not solving it again myself, I'm import solutioning.
Programming isn't about solving problems; it is automating an existing proces, often by writing code. So, you don't thouch anything that has already been done once? 
Asday wrote: I'm truly sorry for you, that every job you've worked has been garbage.
Another psychic medium eh?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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So, you don't thouch anything that has already been done once?
No? I don't. Why would I spend my finite time on this planet making something that already exists?
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