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I disagree.
Apple (hardware) products are very, very well designed. Their phone works well as a phone. Their laptops work extremely well as laptops. Their music players shaped what we came to expect from a music player.
Starbucks coffee isn't, as far as I can tell, actual coffee. It doesn't actually fulfil its basic purpose.
I think people go for Apple because they like the design, the ecosystem, the simplicity (we can argue about this later) and the cache that comes with Apple products.
I think people go for Starbucks because of laziness, ignorance, convenience, or because there's no other choice. There are also those who treat Starbucks as a caffeine delivery system: give me a bigun' and I'll plug 'er in and I'm good. Taste is not even part of the equation. This makes me sad.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: Taste is not even part of the equation.
Surprisingly, this is designed in.
Starbucks use reverse osmosis filters to remove all minerals (and impurities) from the local water, to make it all the same.
And that badly affects the taste of coffee: Secret to perfect cup of coffee lies in the quality of the water researchers say - Telegraph[^]
If you want coffee to taste good, you need a water high in magnesium!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I'm giving you a flat look for sending me research published in a British newspaper about coffee. Britian and coffee is like Australia and drizzly days: we just can't quite get it right.
I would put to the jury that the secret of a good cup of coffee is to start with good coffee
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Start with good coffee, and a good roast (and a barista who knows how to roast): Absolutely! But the water is critical as well. Too pure, and it's too inert to take up the coffee oils properly; too many minerals and it deforms or masks the actual flavour.
Then there is the cleanliness of the equipment, the grind, the age, the packaging, ... it's delicate and complicated stuff, coffee. Just like wine really - one mistake and you have grape vinegar. Get it right...and you have Chateau d'Yquem 1787. 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I think some of the beans I had this morning were from 1787.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: Britian and coffee
Compared to the dishwater I have been served in the good ol' USA, I will go for coffee here any day. However, I never go into Starbucks, Costa or any of those places, so my experience is coffee at home or in a restaurant; both of which I find quite satisfying.
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To be fair I'm finding the coffee in the UK has improved a lot.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Nobody in the UK will be offended by what you say about our coffee.
However, if you were to talk that way about our tea - the true drink of a civilised nation - well, then there would be words.
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I can't vouch for Canadia, but last time I was in Merca I went for an emergency heart starter at around 6am before a 500 mile trip.
"Double shot, strong as fuelephant!" I request.
"D'ya wana decaf?" drawls Doofus T Buck-Frain.
It's 6 o'clock in the morning and the eejit is asking if I want decaf!
veni bibi saltavi
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They saw you coming a mile away.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Now, now, now.
I am an absolutely qualified authority on matters of coffee because I am Italian and, specifically, from Naples.
Many things go into the "perfect cup of coffee", so to say.
Here, we say it must have the three "C": Cumm Cazz Coce (=Jesus this is hot).
So, that's the very first thing: if it doesn't burn your lips, you're doing it wrong.
After that, coffee quality is obviously essential, and here come the first pitfalls: normally, you will go for industrial coffee because it's cheaper, but some of us DO buy custom coffee, meaning bags of coffee that cost A LOT more but also have completely different organoleptic properties. These bags are only sold by specialised dealers.
Because of the difficulty of packaging them properly (these are not industries...), however, it is uncommon to see someone being shipped them from outside where he/she lives.
It does happen if you find a good one, but they're rare.
Surprisingly, water is important in more ways than one: water's molecular composition is important, but so is the temperature at which it boils (I don't have to remind you that different altitudes have different boiling points, right?) because if it's too low the coffee is ruined and if it's too high you end up having it rise too early.
Another really important factor is what brewer you use: normally, you would use what we call a "Moka", but some of us do use the ancient neapolitan brewer (which is far more difficult to handle, but the results can taste markedly different).
A
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So - a subjective subject has an objective standard. I've heard the same sheit about who makes the best Pizza.
But, let's look at this objectively - i.e., not about taste but about the wet-chemistry methodology used to produce coffee.
You have the beans: Surface area will control the rate of various extractions, hence the grind is important to control the following:
Soluble products:
With few exceptions, hotter water extracts more quickly and in larger quantities than colder water. This is potentially both positive and negative, depending upon what you wish to extract from the medium. Conventional coffee wisdom is that boiling water is preferred - and except in pressurized espresso makers, that waters' at 100 C. Most minerals must be in an ionic form if one wishes to extract them with water. There's an effect (common ion effect) that could potentially inhibit the extraction of certain minerals if the extraction medium is already high in said mineral. Organically bound minerals, on the other hand, typically are non-ionic and not particularly soluble (e.g., iron in your blood, copper in lobster blood). There's also the possibility of chelation, further complicating the issue (and the effect of temperature), as it may increase the solubility of poorly soluble minerals (eg, most forms of Calcium). The (nauseating)
Organic Product:
These are basically extracted into the system because they're mobilized by the hot-water (not dissolved in it to any significant degree!). If you look up what is called a soxhlet extraction, you'll see the relationship (Wikipedia [^]has a neat animated image). Again, super-heated water will affect this rate. In the typical drip coffee maker, this is a one-pass event so the variation (based upon water temp and grind) will be much more pronounced.
Bare in mind that none of the above even mentioned the degree of roasting (which would be a coffee specific modification to the processes). The roasting, however, causes a breakdown of many of the components (for the paranoid amongst us, like almost all thermal decomposition, it's free-radical chemistry). The partially oxidized oils may take on some partially ionic character, making them easier to extract (except they may bind more firmly to the substrate) - but they may also polymerize and become less soluble and more difficult to 'soften' with hot water for the extraction.
Keurig systems rely partially on elevated pressure to speed the atrocity they call brewing. They even try to apply this to tea!
If the forgoing was annoying enough, imagine that different filter porosity will effect contact time and amount of oils removed. Some (dumb) filter brands brag how much of the oil they'll absorb! Then, too, my favorite coffee maker type is vacuum drip - I have serious control over how long I brew without every boiling the coffee directly.
Putting all this emphasis on magnesium (vs. essentially distilled water, recommended by many coffee production methods/people/pundits/etc.) is ludicrous. Put a tiny pinch of epson salts into your coffee maker and see if it's better beyond the placebo effect.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I don't understand a word of that, but in a good way (I think), so have an upvote.
Er, I can't think of a funny signature right now.
How about a good fart to break the silence?
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In a nutshell, it's an elaboration on "oil and water don't mix", but you can still somehow manage to do laundry.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Chris Maunder wrote: hardware
This. This is the part you shall not miss. Well done.
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Chris Maunder wrote: and the cache[^] that comes with Apple products.
Do they all have lots of fast temporary storage? Or did you mean cachet[^]? 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Obviously I meant fast temporary storage 
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: laziness, ignorance, convenience, or because there's no other choice
But isn't that how every human makes every decision, ever?
I mean, I know I like to crow about how much research I did over my latest widget purchase, but I can guarantee you I didn't research absolutely every last granule of data available on widgets before I made my decision. Which means my decision was based largely out of ignorance and convenience.
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But if that widget gave you an electric shock every time you used it would you get another? Unless, of course, that was the only widget you could find and you needed one NOW, dammit! NOW!!
That's how I see Starbucks. Taking advantage of my habit and shocking me in the process.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris certainly started a good discussion!
A friend with Italian parents remarked that Starbucks has branches in almost every country in the world except Italy, where coffee was first introduced in Europe. They didn't want to open a café in a country where proper coffee is made.
It's only very recently that Starbucks has dared to open a café in Milan
Jerry
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And I bet it's only used by tourists. Well, that and curious youngsters who will sneak in without their parents/grandparents seeing to try this american abomination.
Er, I can't think of a funny signature right now.
How about a good fart to break the silence?
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Typical EuroSnobbery: the baton of cultural leadership has long ago been passed to the Western Side of the Atlantic. I've been across much of Europe and, particularly when speaking of food and drink, it's time you just get over yourselves.*
And now, I think I'll go enjoy a Hershey Bar[^]!
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Hershey is as bad as Dairy Milk, just in a different way. Mainland Europe seems to have a much better handle on chocolate. I'm not a fan of dark chocolate, but dairy milk is just too sweet. It needs to be chocolatey, creamy and just a bit sweet.
Not sure about cultural leadership, America is such a different place to Europe. There are definitely american influences in europe, but not everything gains traction this side of the pond. Everything is so much bigger there, you have more room. Bigger houses, bigger cars etc. I remember one of the American open-top bus companies trying to start in Bath. They ignored all the local operators and tried to use the same huge open top buses they were using in the US and London. The first one got stuck within a week!
My point is this, some things that work perfectly fine in America won't work here, or at least won't quite fit. Europe, having gotten much "smaller" the last couple of decades, is definitely developing a shared culture, but even there environment, cultural heritage and other influences dictate that there must be differences between each.
We'll continue to pick and choose what we like, but I don't think Europe's culture will ever be "lead" by any influence outside of Europe.
Wow. No idea where that came from. Must be time for a cup of tea! ![Java | [Coffee]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/coffee.gif) (closest picture I could find, sorry)
Er, I can't think of a funny signature right now.
How about a good fart to break the silence?
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Chris Maunder wrote: cache
Cachet, actually. But I like your choice better. 
/ravi
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