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If the updates renders the system unusable for its purposes security is moot. Otherwise a turned off machine is the most secure machine you'll ever see.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote: If the updates renders the system unusable for its purposes security is moot.
That is true. However, from the reasons I have seen so far, what is killing the win10 machines are drivers. Not Microsoft code, but 3rd party code.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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As always. Of course keeping track with a OS that upgrades every week is kind of tough for the 3rd party developers, so good luck to them fixing things...
I'll wait until the upgrades/year will have dropped to acceptable levels or I'll desperatedly need to run something that only Win10 sipports and there is no dirty trick to make it work under 7.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote: Of course keeping track with a OS that upgrades every week is kind of tough for the 3rd party developers
I'll refer to the title of my post and add that it's also tough for Microsoft to make software that works with thousands and thousands of vendors who have drivers for so many different hardware configurations.
It is impossible for Microsoft to test every possible combination, obviously.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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den2k88 wrote: keeping track with a OS that upgrades every week is kind of tough for the 3rd party developers
Let me introduce you to Linux, where you seriously start wondering if you've lost internet connectivity when a machine hasn't downloaded an update in 2 days in a row.
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Yes, but they only take a minute or so, and don't require a reboot (unless it is a kernel update). Even 70 updates the other day only took about 3 minutes. And I have never had them break existing installed hardware. (My gf has win 8.1- can't upgrade due to drivers- but a windows update broke her wireless mouse. She thought it was a dead battery, so replaced the battery, but it still did not work. She had me buy her a new wireless mouse, but it still didn't work. Last night she withheld dinner until I fixed her mouse. I had to remove the unrecognized device entries in her device manager -driver update would not find the driver- and manually download the driver for her mouse and install it.)
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Of all things, what mouse, in this day and age, still requires a proprietary driver not already built into Windows?
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This was a Logitech wireless mouse, same as the one it replaced (which was probably still ok, but we thought it was broken). I think windows had an update (win 8.1) and the mouse would no longer work. I even told windows to look online for an updated driver, but it failed to find one. When I downloaded and installed the driver from Logitech, the mouse worked.
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With the driver (re-)installed, have you retried the original mouse?
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No inreoductions needed, Linux user since 2002 and I share your pain.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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Funny how the same message can elicit completely different responses from different people...
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: Seems some people just want to watch Microsoft burn *shrug*
Yes. But I did not expect it from this crowd. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I agree with your sentiment and I get very easily bored with the "let's slag off Microsoft just for the sake of it" brigade but I do think this one could have been handled a little better.
Would it really be that hard to force the user to schedule a restart within a given time frame? These things take quite a while and certainly caused me a fair bit of inconvenience when the update disabled my laptop for an hour or two the other day.
Ultimately, they run a very real risk of people disabling the update service to stop this happening and that's a hugely counterproductive approach.
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The big problem with MS updates is how long they take...I have rarely seen linux updates take more than a minute, and the longest I remember took about 5 min. Also, the MS updates only update the MS software, but the linux updates update all the software (except for stuff I have manually downloaded and built myself such as nightly builds of some packages).
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: M$ bashers
Based on your post I can't decide which side of that fence you're on, given your spelling of their name. The 90s called, they want their meme back.
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Talk about selective perception. I think it's fairly clear from my post what side I'm on given it was all pro-Microsoft, yet the only thing you reference and take out of context is the one time I mock MS haters by using their lingo. 'Natch your post was up-voted though, I take the mick out of MS haters, you misrepresent me just so you can bash me for being an MS-hater when anyone who can comprehend English knows that's not right, and people up-vote it. CP as passive-aggressive as ever.
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Calm down, it's gonna be alright.
I did understand that your message was all pro-Microsoft, but was only making a point ("being on the fence") out of your use of "M$"--do yourself a favor and don't use the childish spelling, as there's only one way it comes across nowadays. Unless you're on Slashdot, where they still think of Microsoft as the evil empire.
Here, I'm gonna vote you a 5 to counterbalance. 
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F-ES Sitecore wrote: IE is the most up-to-date browser on the web.
You clearly do not do web development.
Jeremy Falcon
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Given the context (software updates) I thought it was fairly obvious when I said most up-to-date I meant in terms of versions and patches. Don't let that get in the way of an insult though
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Wasn't meant to be an insult man, but fair enough. I didn't glean that, because ya know... who has time to read.
Jeremy Falcon
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Golly!
That's shi mao you've made today!
And no, I won't discuss this with you, because you don't discuss it intelligently.
Microsoft doesn't need you acting as an apologist for them (which is probably why you only get wu mao, each time).
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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RyanDev wrote: and from a developer point of view, Microsoft dominates so clearly
You sure about that? If you're doing .NET, then (at least until recently) using a Microsoft OS was your only choice, but .NET isn't the majority development platform these days (don't know that it ever was). I do know that every (non-.NET) developer conference I've ever been at, Macs have dominated the room by an enormous margin. My Google-fu has failed me though, so I don't know if anyone has ever actually looked at OS usage by developers at a statistical level before.
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Vark111 wrote: I do know that every (non-.NET) developer conference I've ever been at, Macs have dominated the room by an enormous margin.
Clearly. 
Vark111 wrote: so I don't know if anyone has ever actually looked at OS usage by developers at a statistical level before.
Don't know. But there are more Windows applications than there are apple so I would have to believe there are more using Microsoft.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Clearly.
Just to be certain: you do realize there are Java developer conferences and web (node/js) developer conferences and Android developer conferences. All of which can be accomplished on Windows machines, but the vast majority of devs I've seen use Macs. That was my point. Not that iOS devs use Macs.
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RyanDev wrote: got sued too many times by people who said it is Microsoft's responsibility to keep their software up to date and secure
I remember plenty of articles discussing the various lawsuits filed against Microsoft, but I don't recall this ever being the case. Can you provide one link?
RyanDev wrote: now Microsoft forces updates and everyone else is complaining now claiming that Microsoft has no right to auto-update their software.
I still maintain that WSUS is well worth the couple of GBs it downloads every month, because nothing can get installed unless I explicitly approve it. It had existed for a decade already by the time I decided to try it out, but now there's no going back for me. Especially in light of the "forced" Windows 10 upgrade, which has never been a problem on any of my machines.
I realize this is not a viable solution for most people, but for us developers? I'd make the argument that if you have at least half a dozen PCs and VMs for testing (as you would as a developer), then it's practically a must.
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