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Hi,
We all know those screws with no Star, Slot, Philips op Posidrive self tapping screws. Star(Torque) and Hex Drives with a pip in the centre to stop me inserting a standard tool to undo the screw. The question is 'Why' manufacturers go to this length.
I am talkin about small domestic appliances, for instance Irons and Toasters.
It has been mentioned that they try to protect a patent inside. Well, if I was after discovering an important patent, I would go to the Patents Office, and request the Patent Documentation. Moreover, if I indeed wanted to look inside to see how it works, a hacksaw and an angle grinder would in most if not all cases give me access to the innards.
Another reason that has been mentioned is 'Consumer Safety' That comes into play were voltages seriously higher than 240/380 Volt come into play. Historically, a Colour CRT had a voltage applied in the range of around 40kV. Never seen tamper proof screws used in these scenario's. Another app is the Power Supply in a Microwave Oven, which uses a Voltage Multiplier Stack to generate voltages between 4 and 16 kV. Never found any security screws there either.
A Further reason stated was: 'No User Serviceable Parts Inside', in other words, This is Our Area, Don't Go There.
That is the most annoying one. I do not rent the appliance, I Bought it, and I own it. It is for me to do with as I wish, modify it as I wish, and accepting that as soon as I open or modify it, that I am out on my own, and that factory guarantees are null and void.
All in all, I do not accept that I should be locked out of an appliance I have bought, by tamperproof screws.
Running a Laundrette for 20 years, Irons fail, mostly because of a temperature over run, and the thermal fuse failing. A Steam Generator Iron? All works on 220/240 Volt. Nothing of extreme danger there. Fit a New Thermal Fuse and the item will work again. By fitting tamper proof screws, the manufacturer makes such repair difficult, if not impossible.
We get on average a Year out of an Iron by repairing. On average each Iron needs 3 repairs in it's one year life, before it is written off and dismantled for spares. Tamperproof Screws work against the motto of 'Repair, Re-Use, Re-Cycle'
Bram van Kampen
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> Tamperproof Screws work against the motto of 'Repair, Re-Use, Re-Cycle'
You just answered your own question.
I have a deep freeze in the garage that is 30 years old. It runs like new. The new stuff you buy today is full of computers and is complete utter crap. The new versions won't run on generator, they die very early. The whole idea is to get you to BUY BUY BUY.
Speaking of irons, I remember my mom's electric iron. I think it was the same iron for as long as I can remember, decades. The new ones last 9 - 12 months. I have a complete kit of tools for opening those "security" screws, including a set for cell-phones. I use it regularly.
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Compaq got it started as far back as the 286 maybe earlier. We have in our shop what us old timers call "The compaq screwdriver" which is just a star you can just let at lowes still opening those HP towers today. largely To get at the failing western digital blue drives.
I think they thought they could discourage the techs and we'd send it in to them for service as end users wouldn't have opened up a tower in any case.
Apple likes to send you to the hardware store.
Not surprised that consumer electronics want in too.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
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Alright, I have to tell this one. 2 weeks ago my wife's hybrid car threw all kinds of error messages. The traction battery was dead and had to be replaced. That's the big one. She was near a dealer so drove it right in. They said it would be $3,200 to install a new battery pack.
I said, uh, thanks, I'll fix it myself. They said ha, you can't do that.
Long story short, last weekend we took the back of the car apart, extracted the battery pack, put it on the bench, isolated the dead cell. Ordered a new cell from China. Installed it, balanced the cells, reinstalled the pack, cleared the errors, tested the car, runs like new again.
Total cost including shipping of the new cell $39.
They have all kinds of warning about you will die a horrible electric death if you touch this. Well, I touched it.
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well, you sound like a guy like myself.
I was brought up in Holland, beside a retired old farmer who had rented his yard out to a scrap dealer. A scrap dealer next door, and I pulled all sorts of things of that heap. Tried to make things work again, From clocks to Motorbikes,(always failed) but got a concept of how things worked, from the age of 6.
At least you could get acces to the battery, apparently without the need for in obtainable tools.
My issue is, that as long as public safety is not involved, i.e.: a Car Lithium Battery can cause an Explosion, a Mains Powered Iron can Not endanger public safety, the owner of the equipment should be entitled to full access, and not be restricted by restricted fasteners.
Bram van Kampen
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Yep, me too. I was given an old non-working motorcycle at age 11, simple, one piston. I got that running and ran it into the ground for years. By the time I was 16 I was rebuilding car engines. There is no better way to learn.
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Lithiun Something cells are no toys. They tend to explode and burn if they are treated the wrong way or at the end of their life, and the smoke is not exactly good for your health as well. On the other side, these cells have a limited lifetime and should therefore be easy to access and replace. It could be made as easy as plugging in the new cell and letting the electronics in the car do all checking and balancing.
The downside to your approach is that now not all cells are equally old and unbalanced voltages will happen more often as the other older cells degrade. This does not really help to prolong the life of the other cells, including the new ones you installed. Repeating this procedure all the time may also cost some nerves.
Edit: And now I'm going to take the LiPolys I have charged and go out on a field to fly a little.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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your in Heaven now. You just don't know you have died. <grin>
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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Well,
You nearly make me eat my complaint, and I hope you are still alive to read this.
Say your traction battery has an action radius of say 160 miles, and, assume say a conservative gas equivalent of 20 miles per galon. The battery then stores the energy equivalent of 8 galon of gas. That constitutes a serious Molotov cocktail that you now store in your garage and drive along the road.
This would be something that should be done properly, so as to protect your own, and also public safety. The first question is, are the cells you buy from china for $39 fully up to spec, or, are they rejects that 'Still Work', but may become dangerous later in their life.
I would be very weary of doing something like that myself, before I appraised myself of all the facts in the matter, including how to quality test the cells.
This is actually a different issue. It comes down to: 'Should the Public be allowed to Create a Potential Fire Bomb'. I am unaware of legislation in the US, but would not at all be surprised if it was allowed there. Here in the UK, such things would be strictly forbidden by law.
Bram van Kampen
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I get 86 mpg in hybrid mode, and 163 mpg in fully automatic mode.
I am still alive, but I now unsubscribing from this thread.
I think you are insane. There is no point in continuing this nonsense.
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Well,
A Keg of Gas Petrol Diesel, Conventional Fuel, will not self ignite if kept in a drum or tank.
The reason is, that it needs oxygen and a spark to ignite. Your battery cells have all components in the same container to produce this energy.
I am actually not insane, I am a qualified Engineer of more than 40 years standing, and I do know what I am talking about.
I am also concerned about your safety, so, please do not just dismiss me as talking nonsense.
There is no nonsense about what I stated. In your figures you failed to mention the base line of 'Conventional Fuel Only'
You are totally missing the point! That you miss that point worries me more!
The Traction battery in your car stores energy! You do not seem to be aware of that concept, and treat it as replacing A1 batteries in a toy.
Stored energy can be released in a regulated way by driving the car. Gas or Diesel is also a form of stored energy.
In a conventional car, energy is supplied in the form of hydrocarbons, primarily gas, which is burned in your conventional engine. In this case, the fuel from the tank, is burned with the air we all breath. In short, the fuel in the tank kan not combust by itself, there is no oxygen in the tank. Despite the movies, conventional cars rarely explode.
In the case of a Battery, there is also a chemical process going. That battery holds all chemicals needed to provide the chemical reaction to release the energy in the form of an electric current to drive your car.
Lithium Ion batteries depend upon very finely crushed chemicals, being perfectly mixed. In the process of charging and discharging, the lithium compounds are changed from one compound to another. If this process is less than perfect, metallic Lithium, called Lithium Dendrites are formed They are at first small, but will grow over time, and start with 'self discharge', i.e. a Dead Cell. When a cell self discharges, it generates heat, ultimately causing the cell to melt, and making more short circuits leading into a run away situation, with ultimately the entire pack exploding
We have seen this behaviour with mobile phone batteries, There is no reason why propulsive car batteries using the same technology, should be free from this explosion risk. By adding batteries from an unspecified source, you put yourself and others at danger.
If you are happy to live with that in the US, fine with me. Just do not bring it to Europe.
Bram van Kampen
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I wouldn't worry.
Looking at the mechanics in the average motor repair place - they are unlikely to have done a better job. In fact - most likely you would take extra care if this was your first time to fix this - compared to people who do it every day and become desensitized to the risks.
True story, friend of mine did his own electrical wiring when he built a house. The inspector confronted him and said that it was obvious that it had not been done by an electrician. My friend buckled and told the truth. How did you know, he asked? The wiring was too perfect. Real electricians are as rough as guts.
Technically - you are not legally allowed to change your own light bulbs.
The world has gone mad. We try way to hard to wrap each other in cotton wool.
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Well, my Friend (as you call me)
There is a lot of difference between wiring a house, and to diagnose the state of a motive car battery. For starters, the main risk of wiring your own house incorrectly is probably your own house, family, and neighbours getting hurt injured or killed. A Mis diagnosed faulty propulsive car battery can act as a bomb, as destructive as a car bomb set off by a terrorist. There is thus a difference.
As for changing Light Bulbs: Yes, the consumer can change these, the law is clear about that in the UK. I have absolutely No Idea about US Law. Don't live there, and have no intentions of ever going there.
In the larger frame of the discussion, the way forward is not by having 'Secret Tools'
Bram van Kampen
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Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery robbery.
FTFY. 
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This may help out in the long run. Not today, but maybe...
(The cynic says 'No', the optimist is still dead!)
It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact
That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties
To Viviparous Mama.
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You can buy "tamper proof" screw bit sets on Fleabay for peanuts - I have a few - so they don't really impact Repair, Reuse, Recycle in any significant way. They do prevent idiots getting them open while plugged in with a kitchen knife and suing the manufacturers when they hurt themselves and burn the house down.
Most products these days are just that: replaceable products that are designed to be replaced relatively quickly. This is why I pay extra: my toaster for example is a Dualit instead of a Russell Hobbs because it's made of real metal, held together with real screws, and all the parts are buyable on FleaBay.
If you are breaking irons every four months, you are buying domestic irons and using them industrially. I prefer the reverse: buy industrial and use domestically!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Well, I know these bits, and, they could do the trick, but for the fact that it needs a 3 inch length to reach down the bottom of the 9/32" hole where the screw head is located. The ones for sale here are 1 inch long. They come with an extension which does not fit down the hole. Had the manufacturer used Standard Torq, Pozidrive or Philips Head screws, the problem would not have arisen.
Bram van Kampen
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Obligatory BC[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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This is yet another way they try to lock in their customers. Repair and maintainance can only be done if you have the right tools. This also has been quite popular with car manufacturers until they were required by law to make their custom tools, software and diagnostic devices available to independent workshops.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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So-called "tamper-proof" screws aren't designed to keep everyone out, they're just intended to discourage the amateurs. To that end, they're probably effective enough for manufacturers to keep using them.
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Well, I would agree with that. At the same time tools should be available to the Non Amateurs.
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Aren't they?--provided that a "non-amateur" is defined as someone who doesn't mind spending money on a more complete tool kit.
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Well,
If you had read the complete thread, you would realise that the issue is not one of money, but the fact that a suitable tool is just not for sale
Bram van Kampen
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