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by classic VB developers do you mean vb6? (not a vb6 developer anymore)
If so, I think I would be excluded because I had to learn about unit tests in my system analysis and design class (actually twice because I took a 300-400 level course on the same subject too). So I would be that person that would prefer to plan my whole project out before proceeding. For big projects, I like using Visio but prefer by default seperating my UI code from dll or logic code. I like dll code in VB.NET because it is reusable and I can change and re-test a function for compatibility with the rest of the code or system. For one open source project, I developed all the documents myself that made up the blueprint for my application or program.
Another point to add to C is how kernel code in windows is ugly. For example, my last project relied on DSF from the Microsoft driver toolkit and I had to rely on the generic hid example (ugliest C/C++ code I've seen in my life and poor documentation!).
I think that the notion that the computer is disappearing with C code would be incorrect too. It should be the computer is getting smaller anyone see the mini-towers? I could almost fit one in my pocket depending on the device. I believe the best way to put C or Classic VB (VB 7 or below?) development is that they are both like politicians you need them at certain times but it's best to avoid if it's not necessary to use them. This excludes any objective C developers but even objective C has its points where it gets ugly.
jeffery
modified 14-May-14 14:16pm.
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jeffery c wrote: by classic VB developers do you mean vb6?
Yup, basically pre-.NET is considered classic VB.
jeffery c wrote: If so, I think I would be excluded because I had to learn about unit tests in my system analysis and design class
Then you're the exception. Ironically I have nothing against VB. It's just a tool. However, working in the industry for 20 years has shown me that the most people that use VB fit in the mold I mentioned. So consider yourself different if you study design, and that's a good thing.
jeffery c wrote: Another point to add to C is how kernel code in windows is ugly.
That's my biggest peeve with C and C++ even. Even in C++ the STL is just ugly. It's a fantastic language, but damn when you look at when compared to languages like C# you have to wonder. C is still my favorite though, there's a few hacks that can be done to make the code look better, so I can live with it.
jeffery c wrote: I could almost fit one in my pocket depending on the device.
They're only getting smaller man. In science and in computing small is the new big for now.
Jeremy Falcon
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Hi Marc,
Commercial context is *everything* so I've seen both extremes in both the Java and .NET worlds.
-Nick
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I find that every place is different, not depending on the language but depending on the "leaders".
In this context a leader may be the dev manager, or may just be a developer with a will, but it is they who are the ones who move teams toward different tools and methods.
And those leaders using C# are more likely to be corporate tie-wearing Microphiles than the Ruby crowd, who are more likely top be open-source addicts with the attention span of an Oh! Shiny.
(I generalise)
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The language chosen for a project is part of a whole batch of decisions, which typically go together. So it's not a case of the language affecting the ethos, but being part of it. There's also the mainstream vs niche separation; people working outside the mainstream are more likely to use quirky or new development methodologies, and some of those make it to be the 'next big thing' like Git and agile.
Languages do push you down a particular road at a lower level, for example a Java project is guaranteed to be OO and framework-heavy, while a Haskell one will be written functionally and a C one is likely to be procedural and probably message-based. You can push against that but it's usually clear what the natural pattern is.
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BobJanova wrote: So it's not a case of the language affecting the ethos, but being part of it.
Ah! That resonates with me. I definitely have seen how a particular group that gathers because of a shared mindset will choose a particular language and toolset. Interesting!
Marc
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This is pretty much what I was going to say. I can't seem to upvote things anymore, so I'm replying instead.
I'll also say that, as a contractor, I use whatever tools and methodologies my customer wants. Since I work in the games industry though, that pretty much means C++, Perforce, Milestones, light on engineering, and definitely unconcerned with maintainability. (I do try to be better than average on those last two, though.)
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Electric-smelectric, here: Steam Driven CAR[^]. 
> The problem with computers is that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. <
> If it doesn't matter, it's antimatter.<
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I test drove a Model S. I liked it.
The backseat is a little cramped though. Fine for kids, not so good for anyone over 6 feet.
That's true for most low cars, of course.
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I just filled out this thing[^] and .. decided to email them instead because I don't have a valid ZIP code.
They have a thing in Minneapolis, they'd probably let you test drive there.
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Also, this[^] looks interesting.
> The problem with computers is that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. <
> If it doesn't matter, it's antimatter.<
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I am hoping that by the time I retire in a few years they are available in Oz, not just Sydney. I'm with Inman on this, I want one, or possible the small SUV that has been mooted, I'm too bloody big to get into one of those poncy little sports cars.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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For some reason (probably because they couldn't use a log scale), the Lounge is not included[^]. Well done, Portugal!
TTFN - Kent
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I only went for two weeks!
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I think you would have to GPS tag a couple of our members to get an accurate reading of various countries drinking habits; in some cases they can be considerably adjusted by simple holidays...Clear this study covered Hungary while Nagy was there, but possibly DD was in Portugal? 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Hungary? Did i hear someone mentioning Hungary?
> The problem with computers is that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. <
> If it doesn't matter, it's antimatter.<
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Indeed. Check out Nagy, a couple of post up in this same thread.
He's UK, but spends time over there - he says for family reasons, but I suspect Tax evasion myself... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Well, his name does sound Hungarian...so he's either telling the truth or he's really very enthusiastic about that tax evasion.
> The problem with computers is that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. <
> If it doesn't matter, it's antimatter.<
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It's as much his real-world name as yours is!
And mine is at least as close as I could get...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yeah, noone can say your name isn't original. 
> The problem with computers is that they do what you tell them to do and not what you want them to do. <
> If it doesn't matter, it's antimatter.<
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I'm not using my real world name either. Wait. Maybe I do. But eventually I was just clever enough to make myself a second, completely realistic second onlince existence.
I will never again mention that Dalek Dave was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel.
How to ask a question
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Nem vagyok magyar, de a feleségem van.
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One of the websites I frequent was experiencing loading problems and said to refresh the page. So I threw some cold water on it. Damn, that didn't make things any better.
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