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jschell wrote: I have never seen any research that suggested that any specific formal process control methodology provided a benefit over any other type.
Even if you did, that would only prove the research was bad. No methodology can fix a bad team.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote: Even if you did, that would only prove the research was bad. No methodology can
fix a bad team.
I don't see how those comments follow from what I posted.
Nor do I see how the first follows from the second presuming that is what you meant.
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jschell wrote: I have never seen any research that suggested that any specific formal process control methodology provided a benefit over any other type.
The point is that if you are using a methodology, any methodology, badly, or not following it correctly, it will not work.
If scrum (or any other methodology) has been adopted by the OP's company, then discussions about whether or not they should follow it are immaterial. They have to do it right, or they're just wasting their time and risking their jobs.
Another point to note is that management will come gunning for anyone who intentionally does things to prevent it's working correctly, and will be right to do so -- you don't sabotage your home team.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: They have to do it right, or they're just wasting their time and risking their jobs.
It has been my experience that the vast majority of development shops fail to implement effective process methodology.
And effective doesn't mean that developers feel good but rather than the over all process such as delivery, overwork, bugs, features delivered, etc, improve once the process is put into place.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Another point to note is that management will come gunning for anyone who intentionally does things to prevent it's working correctly
Not any place that I have ever worked for nor that I have even heard of. At one company management terminated the formal process control because the company was acquired and the employees of the acquiring company found the process control confusing (and given that the code from the acquiring company was the worst code I have ever seen in my entire career it isn't a wonder that they were confused.)
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jschell wrote: It has been my experience that the vast majority of development shops fail to implement effective process methodology.
Perhaps they should have hired better quality people.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Perhaps they should have hired better quality people.
Since effective process control originates from management, not development, the blame lies there.
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jschell wrote: effective process control originates from management, not development
That there is proof positive that you don't understand scrum at all, and probably the reason why it fails where you work.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: That there is proof positive that you don't understand scrum at all
Then apparently neither does the research that demonstrated the same thing - process control only works when it is mandated and enforced by management.
Mark_Wallace wrote: and probably the reason why it fails where you work.
Management level failure is why process control fails at almost all companies.
If you think it works where you work then please provide the metrics (actual measured hard values) that demonstrate an improvement in process control where you work. Also provide a brief overview about how those metrics were collected.
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Translation: 'snot my fault!
Unfortunately, scrum relies on everyone contributing, and gives developers much more control over what they do and how they do it, so if it doesn't work for you, it is because you are not making a commitment to, and taking responsibility for, producing the best possible product -- perhaps because you're too busy looking for other people to blame.
i.e. It is your fault. If you were to put customer needs and the quality of the product before your little character-assassination games, it would work well for you, too.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Unfortunately, scrum relies on everyone contributing
I didn't say it didn't. But that is true of any management decision - regardless of its merits it can't succeed if the rank and file do not do it.
Mark_Wallace wrote: so if it doesn't work for you, it is because you are not making a commitment to,
and taking responsibility for, producing the best possible product -- perhaps
because you're too busy looking for other people to blame.
Complete and utter nonsense.
I have been a proponent of process control for a very long time. That includes promoting it, contributing to it, participating in committees, providing education, etc. And reading a great deal about different methodologies and ways to succeed and fail. At several companies I was the ONLY one providing guidance and formal process.
And that dedication is the reason I understand what process control is supposed to do and why it fails to succeed.
Mark_Wallace wrote: It is your fault.
AGAIN provide the metrics that demonstrate that it is succeeding where you are.
If you do not have the metrics then you have nothing more than an emotional reaction which is no more meaningful than puppy love.
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Bored with you, now. Your arguments aren't intelligent enough.
Troll someone else for a while.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: Bored with you, now.
But not so bored that you felt you still needed to take time to denigrate.
Mark_Wallace wrote: Your arguments aren't intelligent enough.
You mean you can't understand them (yes I can denigrate as well.)
And given that you completely ignored my comments about metrics twice I am rather certain now that you have none.
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That doesn't sound like SCRUM to me. Somebody is faking it.
Anna ![Rose | [Rose]](https://www.codeproject.com/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
Tech Blog | Visual Lint
"Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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Everybody in my life is faking it recently. Does that mean its me? 
Hogan
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Only if you don't call their bluff!
Anna
Tech Blog | Visual Lint
"Why would anyone prefer to wield a weapon that takes both hands at once, when they could use a lighter (and obviously superior) weapon that allows you to wield multiple ones at a time, and thus supports multi-paradigm carnage?"
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This is pretty much my experience with SCRUM too.
The main things that impeded our process:
-SCRUM for a large team does NOT usually work well. Say each person takes a time frame of 3 min on average, a team of 10 people will already use up 30 min SCRUM time. Hard not to zone the hell out, especially if the talker is going on about unnecessary details and blabbing the world away. We had a team of just under 20, and our scrum meetings occasionally went over an hour.
-Developer pride... no one likes to admit that they're having problems with an issue in front of THE WHOLE TEAM. I guess the point is to encourage openness but again, it doesn't work unless if everyone is open about their problems, but how does one really know if the other person is being open or not?
-Productivity scores were okay in usefulness at best. If we couldn't finish something, the scrum master would just assign more hours to it, or put it on the next sprint, which doesn't really help for productivity. If things were going bad for the sprint, it can't always be helped, because things don't always go as planned. Forcing things to happen in development is a pretty bad idea.
-Geographical division of developers. Yes there is google hangout/skype, but it's hard to be open to people who you don't even see in person.
-Production issues... take priority and mess up sprint planning. Sprint failed. These prod issues usually end up taking a huge chunk of scrum time too.
Don't get me wrong, I know SCRUM does work, but it only works if done properly. I love hearing what other people are working on, but at the same time there were countless scrums where I could have used that 40 min - 60 min time period to do something more productive. SCRUM needs to be short, and done in scope (What was done yesterday, today, need help?).
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Can I ask did you bring up these issues in a retrospective for the team to discuss?
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We're still on sprint 1. Our retrospective is this coming Friday. I've been talking to the decision makers in our group separately about my concerns, so we'll see what happens...
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I didn't bring it up because I was only a co-op/intern student, and it was also my first time with SCRUM process. I wasn't sure what SCRUM was supposed to be like at that time.
However, my current company is also planning to start SCRUM, so I'm hoping we'll do it right. 
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Silvabolt wrote: ...so I'm hoping we'll do it right.
Money bets favor that it won't be.
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10 to 20 people is too many for one scrum team. When the group gets this large, it must be broken down to teams of 7 (+/- 1). Then, each group must have a leader. The scrum should never take more than 15 minutes. Each person should tell what he/she did, is going to do, and the roadblocks faced. Then each group leader meets with the other group leaders to give the details (a high level scrum).
If your project is this large, break it down to a more manageable team size. Otherwise, it gets too unwieldy and useful time is lost.
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Beats ours -- our daily fifteen minutes have been scheduled for three times a week for an hour. 
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I've suggested this, but 2x Tue/Thu. So far they don't want to change. How is this working out for your group?
Hogan
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SCRUM was one of the best environment I've worked in.
Without knowing name, place and context, I can surmise that the person running the show has no clue about SCRUM. Yes, SCRUM is about self - organizing but in this context, it is a buck-passing game. Either you are surrounded by perennial variety of developers or you've gotten clueless project manager or both.
If you care about the company and project, take charge of situation but be prepared for political aftermath and resultant consequences
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I think a few people on the group do know about SCRUM, but the group as a whole is very new with it. I still need to give it time, but this post is about my initial reactions. I'm hoping that I can post a follow up about how good it is in a few months.
Hogan
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