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The Osmosian Order wrote: I'm not sure what your statement is doing and why it is necessary, so I can't be more specific. I am sure, however, that you have acheived conciseness at the expense of clarity. Your statement is unnatural and obscure - show it to 10 people at random on the street if you're not convinced.
What I wrote, int val = 1 + (oldval % 10); , is in the C/C++ Language.
Take a look at THIS[^].
Maxwell Chen
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You can not go far in computer programming without encountering math, so obviously any general purpose programming language must support math in a natural and intuitive manner. I can not imagine a better choice in this regard then standard mathematical notation - What they'll find when they look in a text book to find out how to do what needs to be done. i.e.
Something like this:
area = pi*(r^2)
I admit this isn't exactly the standard notation but its close and the mapping is simple and intuitive.
Almost every programming language I'm aware of has the concept of a user defined function: There is nothing from stopping a programmer from hiding some math inside a function with C or C++. Moreover, this name can be meaningful.
Steve
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The Osmosian Order wrote: I'm not sure what your statement is doing
Uhhhh, it is adding 1 to oldval % 10 and assigning the result to val. Anyhow, you wrote the Plain English compiler and you don't understand a simple C/C++/C#/Java style statement like this. This really tells alot...
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The Osmosian Order wrote: which compiler was it you wrote?
Haven't written one and don't care to write one either because I don't see a need to write one unless I am working with some kind of specialized hardware. Also, in your other post you accuse me of jumping to conclusions. I am not, just stating an opinion 
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The Osmosian Order wrote: Writing a compiler is a great exercise, if only for its educational value
Only in a Graduate Compilers course I have, but not for real world money making  Oh, and we did use the Dragon book. Saw you knocking it in an earlier post, let's see you write a better book and try to refrain from promoting your Plain English Compiler
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The Osmosian Order wrote: It's always good for developers to keep abreast of new and competing technologies
Rzeppa, you don't even compete with Delphi let alone more modern languages.
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
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 Actually that was quite a comedic response.
Jokes aside though, your response is as plainly rubbish as your product.
Look here[^] at the popularity of programming languages and you will see that Delphi, although dated, is still very much in use. Can you spot "Plain English" anywhere? No you cant, so they are not competing with you whatsoever nor will they ever have to. Even in Delphi's "twighlight" years they have more users than your excuse for a programming language ever will.
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
-- modified at 15:18 Wednesday 17th May, 2006
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Looking through the oppinion vote-wise on this thread alone, the community has spoken really.
Lets not forget that almost every thread you have ever posted on this forum has been voted down.
Can I make a suggestion to you, (and this is based upon a fair amount of research on your product bar actually using it, its syntax, and other products with a similar "goal") market this to smart kids, market it to schools and colleges, market it to the non-professional home programmer (I know many people who would LOVE to be able to program an app without "all that gobbledegook that you write"), market it to the home user who wants to build their own contact management app - even market it as a scripting language that can be embedded into applications for extensibility.
But for god's sake, stop trying to market it to professional programmers. Your "manifesto" shows that you live in la-la land.
Secondly, and this may surprise you, we don't generally make the decisions on which programming language to use commercially. We get paid to program X in Y language and we do it. Many programmers choose their language for hobbyist or "pet" projects - and if its this market you're after then look at Ruby as an example - does this sugar-coat the candy? NO does it provide functionality that some more commercial languages dont? YES
Thirdly, programmers have been burnt time and again by langauges making not dissimilar claims to you. Im sure you've looked at the histories of COBOL and VB with the associated gripes programmers had. Im sure you've even tried to not fall into the same traps, but either way you have an uphill battle trying to convince us. The fact is, languages targetted at professional developers are getting more terse, not more verbose like PE.
You get voted down not because of your product, nor your ability, but because of your attitude and arrogance. Stop and listen, even YOU may learn something.
Finally, if after reading all my responses to your posts you still think you can convince me how wonderous Plain English is, you can contact ME and ask ME to evaluate it.
I will gladly write an article for CodeProject about my experience - but be aware that I will not sugar coat anything. If its bad I will say so, and if its good I will too - I'll attempt to forgo all bias, except that for the reasons stated above you are going to have an uphill battle. Some how, I doubt ill hear from you.
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
-- modified at 6:35 Thursday 18th May, 2006
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The Osmosian Order wrote: I'm not sure how you want me to contact you directly
This site allows you to send me an email, if you are unable to even find how then it says volumes about your technical abilities.
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
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Thats pretty much what I thought you'd say.
If you wont spend a little of YOUR time trying to attract me, a commercial developer of a little under 10 years, even with the premise of some free publicity, then your marketing skills have let down any good work your programming fingers may or may not have done.
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
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I dont want fancy pictures, I dont want to be added to your automated mailer by sending a mail to your email address.
All I want is a simple message from you Dan Rzeppa. You sound like you are trying to "sign me up" to something with you "send a request to help@osmosian.com"
On the subject of my review, I will do it when I have time which may take a few weeks as I work for a living!
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
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The Osmosian Order wrote: the address that CodeProject sends me with each notification of a new post from you the right place
Yes, it will route its way to me, with the required spam filters in place. I had BETTER not end up on any mailers with it though!
Current blacklist
svmilky - Extremely rude | FeRtoll - Rude personal emails | ironstrike1 - Rude & Obnoxious behaviour
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J4amieC wrote: for god's sake, stop trying to market it to professional programmers.
Yes, us professional programmers prefer professional programming languages and tools. No offense, but the PE (Plain English) is not anywheres close to professional. There are no screen shots, no download forms, no online documentation to view ( MSDN has a whole reference section for the .NET Framework ), etc. Providing online whitepapers and the other items I have mention might help and they are what I look for when investigating a new programming language.
PJC
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The Osmosian Order wrote: It's "we professionals", not "us professionals". And it's "anywhere", not "anywheres". If we going to be professional, let's at least be correct in our usage of the language.
MS Word grammar checker and Word Perfect grammar checker state that it is valid grammar. I didn't know you try to be a grammar cop, too.
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I wrote:
us professional programmers prefer professional programming languages and tools.
when dropping the word professional, we get:
us programmers prefer professional programming languages and tools.
which still makes sense 
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The Osmosian Order wrote: Now, how about that free, complete, unrestricted sample copy for review?
Maybe in the near future, say in a month or so. I have other obligations to clear up first.
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The Osmosian Order wrote: Plain English. Really. It's cleaner, simpler, faster, cheaper, etc.
Are you sure it more cleaner and simpler?
Remember that I asked you how to use your syntax of Plain English programming to do very simple arithmetic, val = 1 + (oldval % 10);?!
You have not answered me how.
I just want to calculate values --- very simple arithmetics, just like those quizes for the elementary school students (like: (2 * 7 + 4) / (2 + 1) = ??).
I expected you to answer me as:
There is an existing value named oldval.<br />
Count one adding the remainder from oldval mod ten.
Or something similar. (I am not good in PE.)
If such simple arithmetic takes reason to do it in Plain English, it is NOT any simple.
Maxwell Chen
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How about something like
val becomes sum of 1 and oldval modulus 10?
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The Osmosian Order wrote: I was waiting for you to provide further information. My last question to you was regarding the intent of your statement, "int val = 1 + ( oldval % 10 );". In that post, I suggested that conciseness is acheived in Plain English by "naming" formulas and using the names in place of the equations.
Why do you need more information? val and oldval are the names. And 1 + ( oldval % 10 ) is the context, the expression.
Just like the quiz at school. Did you ask your teacher why and what's the context when you receive a question like this?
1 + 2 * 3 = ____ If your programming way takes that much efforts to come out very simple arithmetic (number counting), it tells a lot.
Plain spoken English contains the expressions for simple arithmetic. Don't forget that! There is no need to assume whatever different way of thinking or context. English speakers know there a way called "metaphrase" (aka: 1 + 1 = 2, one plus one equals two).
The Osmosian Order wrote: and write us: help@osmosian.com
Before the whole conversations with you, I had downloaded the sample code earlier from your website to get to know what exactly PE programming is.
Maxwell Chen
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computerguru92382 wrote: Yes, us professional programmers prefer professional programming languages and tools
I thought you were insterested in VB?
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Huh? What makes you think I am a VB guy?
K(arl) wrote: professional programmers prefer professional programming languages and tools
I meant like C/C++. I guess VB could count, too 
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Paul Conrad wrote: What makes you think I am a VB guy?
Your profile. "Interests: C++, MFC, COM, Win32, C#, VB.NET, Database". Even .NET, VB is VB!
Paul Conrad wrote: VB could count,
 Since when VB writers are programmers?
It is easier to make war than to make peace.
Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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