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... is similar to serfdom.
No one should accept to work for nothing. This is exploitation
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Ka?l wrote: No one should accept to work for nothing.
Hell, I'd better stop volunteering for charity projects, then. I thought I was helping feed the hungry, but as it turns out it was exploatation. 
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I see humour is not dead on CP 
As a volunteer, I don't think you can consider yourself as an employee . And if you are, and are not paid, then yes, you are exploited, and you may well end needing the services of the charity your work for to feed you, the hungry.
I prefer the company of peasants because they have not been educated sufficiently to reason incorrectly.
Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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I have not worked in a job where overtime (even in the $5/hr jobs in college) was permitted however in most cases it was expected. I mean you were and are expected to work more than the 40 hours that is automatically put on your time card. Although I do not work the hours as I did in the past (girlfriend will not permit that), if I was paid overtime I would have broke 100K (in Pittsburgh where $200K gets you a 2000+ square foot house with a large lot in a good neighborhood...) for probably all of the years that I have been in C++ programming job. I am still very happy in this job though.
John
modified on Monday, August 18, 2008 12:40 PM
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John M. Drescher wrote: I mean you were and are expected to work more than the 40 hours that is automatically put on your time card.
hope then that the KY lube is for free
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We do get descent yearly raises though.
John
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My friend works for a big company (can't say as he is not really allowed to say what he does), and most often his pay for overtime exceeds his normal time pay.
You should see how hard this guy works...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Chineese Proverb]
Jonathan C Dickinson (C# Software Engineer)
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If one of my guys worked a couple extra hours one evening and submitted an overtime card (not that we have them!) I'd be less than impressed.
It's the natural of the game that one will be expected to put in some extra hours here and there.
If it is a deathmarch, then sure.
Otherwise showing a willingness to work a bit extra should rather count in your favor when it comes to bonuses and increases.
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Hey... then why get paid for regular hours, too?
I mean... what better way to say you're enthusiastic about your job, than not asking for any money. It should get you some real points when it comes to bonuses and taps on the shoulder... The down side is that one would be dependant on bonuses, since he gave up his regular salary.
Putting some extra hours from time to time in order to meet the dead line, or to work on some great new idea, or whatever is OK, but constantly working extra hours (shifts, days...) just because the manageres are incompetent, or because the sales team doesn't really know what they are selling, or for whatever reason, and not getting paid for that is just plain old wrong.
To hell with circumstances; I create opportunities.
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rastaVnuce wrote: Putting some extra hours from time to time in order to meet the dead line, or to work on some great new idea, or whatever is OK, but constantly working extra hours (shifts, days...) just because the manageres are incompetent, or because the sales team doesn't really know what they are selling, or for whatever reason, and not getting paid for that is just plain old wrong.
Agreed, 100%.
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Personally I think there should be a move towards "contract" based work, and by that I don't mean the developers being actual contractors. I'm talking about the company/dev team and the developer agreeing on a distinct piece of work and a timescale, the developer can then work when/as he sees fit. This could be 24 hours a day for 3 days or 8 hours a day for 9 days, or whatever. I think this kind of work fits into this well. Obviously you'd need some leeway and some checks and balances.
That's a bit of an aside really but in terms of overtime, I get paid overtime but at the end of the day would be happy to agree a higher salary and lose the overtime pay. True flexi-time would be much more valuable to me and I think much better for the business. I know some companies do already work like this, but I've no idea how widespread it is.
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I work for a company where all development, no matter how small the task, is run as a project.
A resource (or resources) gets allocated to the project and timelines are worked out in normal 8 hour working days. Once we agreed on the time lines then they do not care how wework and when we work as long as the deadline is met.
This leaves us to manage our time ourselves and we love it as we are not under the constraints of normal working hours.
I get to the office round about 11 am and then I work to +- 7 pm. If I want to take some time off (without taking leave days) then that is fine as long as I still make the deadline.
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That's awesome, I'm very jealous. Surely you should be getting in at 6 and leaving at 2 though!?
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I could surely do that. I am however not a morning person and enjoy sleeping a bit late otherwise I am all cranky  .
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Your ignoring the down-side to this. I've rarely encountered a project manager type who doesn't want to shorten deadlines and otherwise cutback on resources/expenses. That's how they earn their bonus'.
Then, what you considered awsome gets slightly rewritten as awful: not only will your personal life disappear, but your pleasure in the work will soon follow.
And, these days, with outsourcing so tempting to many of these types, one could find themselves enslaved by the fear of cheap (albeit shortsighted) replacement.
As a contractor (who can pretty much make his own hours), I remind you of one of the great wisdoms of the cosmos: Be careful what you ask for . . . you might get it.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol
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Sure any system could be abused, but I think some companies are relatively enlightened about the way they treat their people. My own company certainly is, even if it doesn't go in for what I've described above. I think the amount of abuse this is open to is all relative to how senior you are, how specialised your job is, etc. i.e. the balance of powers between employer and employee.
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Perhaps you've missed the various business news items about how enlightend the majority of companies are in reguard to their employees:
A current top manager screws up the company - get dismissed with a US$25,000,000 severence package - and thousands of employees are layed off for his/her incompetence.
It's happening constantly: the employees pay the price for management's inabilities. They get the money - we get the shaft.
Yes, I know of exceptions. I remember a news item about an upstate NY Shoe manufacturer who payed all of his employees 1/2 pay after the plant burned down, until it was rebuilt, so he could rehire them. It was so amazing. That's why it was news.
Your company is enlighted? I guess so. For now. Let's hope you never see what happens on the day when the chips are down: do they cut out the management, or the employees (who actually produce the work that earns the money).
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"How do you find out if you're unwanted if everyone you try to ask tells you to go away?" - Balboos HaGadol
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Some people are so cynical! 
I don't doubt that a majority of companies want to screw their staff for all they can get, but hopefully I won't end up working for one of those companies. So far maybe I've been lucky to be able to move around and get jobs working for good companies. And if I move again and the company treats me bad, I hope I'll be in a position to leave for somewhere better.
Anyhow, the original post was about an idea that I think works well for all concerned, but it's not common practice so I probably can't disagree with what you're saying.
And if my current company stop being enlightened, hopefully they'll sack a couple of the younger guys before me! If not, I'll finally get to spend some time away from the screen.
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Just because you are willing to work until you're too burned out to enjoy your family time and hobbies doesn't mean that you should expect others to sacrifice their personal lives for your company's benefit.
To most of us, a job is just the thing that provides enough money to have a personal life. When the job consistently encroaches on the personal life, it's time to find a new job.
Paul
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Ten-hour days, 5 days a week, are not uncommon here. It's due to the nature of the application we support. We're not paid OT, but our annual compensation is quite good...and we get a bonus (2-weeks of pay) every year. Also, our annual reviews, if good (and they usually are), can add 3-5% a year as well...so no one complains.
What does an agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac do?
He lies awake at night wondering if there's a dog.
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Expecting your employees to work overtime here and there....what does that mean? Some managers say that to indicate 3 or 4 overtime days a year, some take it to mean 1 or 2 overtime days a week. "If it's a deathmarch..."? Deathmarches are indicators of organizational incompetence, 19 times out of 20.
When I was first learning SQL, my boss at that time was upset with me because I was often late in the morning (at that time, I was just beginning to accept that Hell was coming to breakfast as my first wife declined from damage due to a brain tumor and its subsequent treatment), so he refused to give me a project in SQL where one component was running way too long (it needed to finish in less than an hour, and was running about an hour and a half for some branches). He gave it to my colleague V, who spent a week and got maybe a 10% increase in performance. He then gave it to D, who got no further improvement in about ten days. Then, finally, he gave it to me...and I got an 80% drop in the time taken by the procedure after TWO days of work.
Overtime is meaningless, mister. Productivity is king. My boss eased up on arrival time complaints (giving me a moderately flexible arrival time) and both of us were happier. Tell me, are you rewarding your high producers, even if they don't work extra hours? If not, your priorities may need a revalution.
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Does that mean that if an employee left a couple of hours early here and there they would be justified in expecting you to pay them for time not worked?
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
So if you boss expects you to put in overtime he shouldn't complain if you need to leave on occasions.
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