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... but let this command line tool be accessible by mouse click. And since computer is better at remembering things, let this tool show me a check box for each option.
It was fun 25 years ago - learning by heart all 800 pages of system manuals and editor script options, and interrupt specifications. Now I do not want to waste my time on reading manuals even for mobile phones. And did I mention, I code on laptop, so I prefer not to stretch to reach the keyboard that stands in the corner, but code with a mouse (preferably, not moving it around the screen much - takes too much time  )
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You are right though, I seriously hate using keyboard and mouse at ALL! programming and db stuff from 9 to 5 and then all sorts of crazy searching, surfing, reading and gaming after hours.
I would spend about 14 hours of the day on the comupter, and the rest sleeping. Not overweight or lazy, but think of the time saved if no manual entry of ANY SORT was required. Voice activated stuff is the future, if not cerebral powered in the future...
I guess, however, there will always be a place for the fundamental coding required for some apps.. unfortunately. 
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Keep in mind that "faster innovation" would also mean more frequent improvements to GUIs, etc. I mean, think about it: If Linux dominated the market, by the time Windows XP was out, Linux probably would have had something equivalent to Windows 7 out on the market, and it wouldn't be as much of a botch-job as Vista was...
It'd be user-friendly not only for the idiots, but for developers and geeks, too! (Note that windows CLI bytes compared to Linux). I'd imagine it'd be like taking the strengths from Windows (gaming, gaming, and... gaming) and the strengths of Linux (memory efficient, free, fast, and so forth).
Get the best of both worlds  .
"Silently laughing at silly people is much more satisfying in the long run than rolling around with them in a dusty street, trying to knock out all their teeth. If nothing else, it's better on the clothes." - Belgarath (David Eddings)
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The biggest obstacle to widespread acceptance of linux is the difficulty of installing programs and, most especially, drivers for the multitude of different hardware that people attach to their desktops.
Linux just has a different approach. It is not designed, at least not currently, so that for the average home user (read: computer moron) can easily and simply and in just a few simple steps that are the same for every other user on most distributions install a program or a new piece of hardware. Until that barrier is greatly lowered, it will never approach windows in marketshare.
Judy
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There's also always the consideration that perhaps making (almost) idiot-proof computers has led to the vast pool of idiots dwindling within earth's gene pool (read: Idiocracy movie (2006)). If Linux had dominated the market, we'd probably have a smarter collection of people  :P
Actually, the point that everyone seems to be missing that I've been trying to make is this: If Linux had as much support and as many developers as Microsoft has had, I have no doubt that all of the things that have held Linux back all this time would be irrelevant.
It is not designed, at least not currently, so that for the average home user (read: computer moron) can easily and simply and in just a few simple steps that are the same for every other user on most distributions install a program or a new piece of hardware. Until that barrier is greatly lowered, it will never approach windows in marketshare.
This is my point, exactly: If Linux and Windows had been in opposite positions in the marketplace for the past 20 years, the "barrier" would have been lowered well over a decade ago. Even now, it's getting to the point (particularly with Ubuntu) that average users can start using it! If it had the development community over the past two decades that Windows has had, the barrier may have been lowered before it even became an issue. And even if it didn't, there would be fewer morons online
"Silently laughing at silly people is much more satisfying in the long run than rolling around with them in a dusty street, trying to knock out all their teeth. If nothing else, it's better on the clothes." - Belgarath (David Eddings)
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I think we're agreeing somewhat, but I'm not sure you got my major point. Linux is, at its most basic philosphical level, a system designed by and for developers. Ubuntu's success has been due to the fact that they are moving away away from that basic approach. Ubuntu is a decent attempt at making something for the non-developer. They strive to minimize the number of times a user needs to go to the command line, let alone build something from source code. That is a basic paradigm shift. Linux purists will say that it is no longer Linux.
nalorin wrote: If it had the development community over the past two decades that Windows has had, the barrier may have been lowered before it even became an issue
It's a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. Without the shift away from a developer's system to a user's system, Linux never would get market share and therefore would remain a niche system. With the shift, Linux is finally getting a bigger market share and more developers, but it is becoming "not quite Linux". After 20 more years of shifting farther from a developer's system, will it even be recognizable as Linux? After 20 years, Windows is still recognizably Windows. I don't think Ubuntu, for example, will be able to say that.
Judy
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This question is like other surveys What is your favourite OS on which to develop software?[^], Would you use an Apple computer as your main machine?[^], In which languages are you doing paid work?[^]
I believe that 100% or 99% of CP.com (not lamp.CP.com or java.cp.com) members are .NET guys or at least working on Microsoft technologies. No need to check the result. We already know the answer.
If you are asking "Would you use an Apple computer as your main machine?" in 3D or Graphics forum, Apple Rate might be higher than windows.
The same way, if you are asking this question "In which languages are you doing paid work?" in wordpress forum, the highest rate will be "PHP"
I'm thinking what kinda survey we should take. maybe~
1) Are you actively participating in OpenSource project?
Options: Yes/ No/ Yes, it was long time back/ No way! Doing something for free is wasting time./ etc
2) Do you think that it's good to be an early adopter of a particular technology?
Options: 1) Yes because it gives me more oppotunities./ 2) No. I never use the latest technology. MS keep on releasing new technology again and again but we can't throw away our exisiting applications/ 3) learning new technology is good but not that useful for real project.
( Hey, maybe, you need to re-phase the sentense  The purpose of this question is that just want to know whether learning the latest technology is good or not. For example: I'm currently doing Silverlight actively. (I know you hate SL ) but the problem is that I can't get a Silverlight job in Singapore. So, learning the latest technologies doesn't matter that much in my place. but yes. I got a few offers for making tutorial videos or writing books or writing the articles on some sites related to Silverlight. and also, the traffic of my blog is increased but can't find the Silverlight job What about in your country? )
3) CP now have a job board. Are you happy with that?
Options: Yes/ No/ It's okay/ ----(fill other reason) ----
(I think someone posted about that in lounge but now, asking officially )
4) Do you think it's good to ask the data structure or theory in job interview?
Options: Yes/ No/ It's stupid/ ----(fill other reasons) ----
( There are a lot of people who are working as a Software Enginer for web application or windows application but they said that they never use bubble sort or linked list or etc in their real project. but I think maybe, it might depend on the projects but normally no need to use. )
5) etc ?
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I think the point of the forum is to see what has changed. It might only be a few percent but do it twice a year over many years and you can spot trends.
You are right that CP is mainly .NET/Microsoft C++ but there are a good few of us doing other work.
And there is a suggestions link for the poll, send yours there I reckon
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Well for me the change is that I clicked 2 buttons (I would only click 1 in 2007) and if later this year I get my hands on a mac I will click 3 buttons. To facilitate that I am developing using Qt under Visual Studio (2003 or 2005) in 32 bit windows and KDevelop under 64 bit gentoo linux and using CMake to generate my project files for both environments.
John
modified on Monday, June 9, 2008 11:59 AM
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We also make use of Qt and CMake, as well as boost. Great tools/libraries!
Robert L Caudill
OSU Research Field Office
Eglin, AFB Florida
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You are right my dear friend. I totally agree. :P
Kamal Singh
(Senior Software Engineer)
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Kamal Singh D. Kharayat wrote: You are right my dear friend. I totally agree.
Thanks, man
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Windows should be the most wisely chosen and preferred platform for many at least for the sake of friendlier and rapid application development. Even when you want your applications to port another platform like Linux, you still stand to gain through Windows using standard emulators like Cygwin for Linux.
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar
Personal Homepage
Tech Gossips
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts... --William Shakespeare
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True, but i thing that developing has more to do business which in turn has to do with profit which that in turn has to do with clients which has to do with market share which has to do popularity which has to do with ease of use which ......... 'add a couple of million other factors' ...... which has to do with Microsoft which HAD to do with B.Gs (I'm not talking about the band !!).
A side note .... Now that the most cursed person in the world (of IT) is out of the game (sort of saying), we can expect things to go even worst .... 
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Hopefully now, I'll stop getting the:
"Code C++/Java/Whatever instead of C#! It can run on more different OS's than C# can!!!"
Windows XP SP3 FTW! 
-= Reelix =-
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I agree!
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Vasudevan Deepak Kumar wrote: e: Monday, June 9, 2008 5:39 AM
Windows should be the most wisely chosen and preferred platform for many at least for the sake of friendlier and rapid application development.
In the .NET/Microsoft C++ world, yes. In other worlds, no. Lot of Java server devs out there and Windows is not an automatic choice. Lots of web-devs out there not using ASP.NET and Windows is actually a pretty poor web-dev platform.
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Nope......Don't Think So.....!
I usually do not repond to "absolutes" like this, however I will trhow in my two(2) cents worth.
Windows SHOULD NOT be the preferred platform for application development. Perhaps in my 25-years or so in IT as a developer, COBOL, C and C++, something seems gets lost in the translation when you go to the .NET Platform. Now, before the angry mob "storms the castle", here are some observations:
1. A basic understanding, more times that not, is lost of how "that-really-cool-GUI" impacts on the application as a whole. Many a time, and in my personal experience
2. .NET is cool, no doubt about it, but why do I need an IDE that "tells" me what my SYNTAX errors are, gives me options to variable types,16 gazillion different development panes/windows,status bars, this gizmo, that gizmo, et.al? As an old-timer , Just let me open a window, and type in my code via my favorite editor (Vi, of course...) and have at it.
3. Compiling your source code, should not encompass "hitting-the-widget" at the top of your screen. Most developers I have known, ENJOY typing in the "command line syntax", watching the compiler initiate, and then getting lines of SYNTAX, UNDEFINES and the such. We are Developers, that is what we do. We want to search, seek and look for the reasons we got a Sementation Fault, or Bus Error, or SOC7. I don't want you to tell me all that and other, sometimes useless information in those "pretty little windows".
3. .NET is NOT what you want to use to replace your "LEGACY" systems. Ask the Insurance and Banking Industries. You will notice that they are STILL using the IBM/AIX/UNIX Platforms. You need to understand these systems are huge and STILL work very well. If I was a CIO, and someone started the notion of migrating our 1-million plus lines of LEAGACY application software to VB.NET or something similar, after being unconscious for several hours , I would have to probably have to engage in some type of theraputic treatment for a significant amount of time  .
Now, with all that being said, .NET is GOOD for architectures already based on a Microsoft Platform. I will not argue that case. The scalability, tools, gizmos all work together very well.
But you need to understand, .NET is NOT the "end-all-be-all", and IT needs to understand that. We just cannot afford to always jump on the "flavor-of-the-day" because it is the next best thing.
In closing, here are a few "interesting" if not provocative comments I experienced recently:
"... COBOL is outdated and will never be used today..."
"... No one uses UNIX..."
"... What the heck are you using Vi for...?"
My reponse to them, to coin a phrase, "...In time Young Jedi.....In time....."
".... We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own . . . . Resistance is Futile . . . . You will be Assimilated . . . . . ."
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kxh29 wrote: Just let me open a window, and type in my code via my favorite editor
<blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">kxh29 wrote:</div>"command line syntax", watching the compiler initiate</blockquote>
Yep, unless I'm doing something with WinForms I use EDIT and compile at the command line.
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that's B.S. -- only because ms dumbs everything down
it's the mcdonald's drive-through mentality...have to have it quick and easy without any thinking or effort on the user's part... that's why ms products all have that code-completion junk.
people including some software engineers are going to look like potatoes soon -- with small heads and big fat bodies... from intellectual laziness!
David
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Well....in a manner of speaking.....
You are absolutely correct. Quick, fast and easy. This is NOT the normal
psyche of most Software Application/Software Development Engineers.
I would really shudder, if our brethern at Rayethon or Grumman were tasked to create their
Missle Guidance Systems using a Microsoft Platform.
Or for that matter, the Fighter Pilot or Attack Pilot when they pull the trigger, they recieve a
404 Error - You are not Authorized to View this Screen.... 
".... We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own . . . . Resistance is Futile . . . . You will be Assimilated . . . . . ."
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Well, well,... I saw some people coding in notepad and compiling via batch file. So they still exist
I program on laptop at home. And so I code with my mouse and Ctrl^C/Ctrl^V (several keyboards a day do not let you subconsiously use easier key combinations - at least Control keys are located at the same spot). It means that I use code completion all the time.
And when I switch to Java, NetBeans would not finish this line for me:
MyLongClass<String key, List<Object>> var = new
... so there, my coding is 10% slower.
Etkins, will you just type it with 10 fingers faster than with a mouse click? Profy 
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I am not sure I understand your comment.
f- notepad... I code using vi. Folks who are adept at using vi enjoy keeping their hands on the keyboard, and thus using the mouse becomes an annoyance. In fact, some might argue that the mouse will then cause productivity losses, because you have to stop typing to reach for the mouse
David
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assuming you have to use a mouse to utilize code completion or features common to modern day IDE's (which is false).
I personally hate vi because of the learning curve (which I never got over cause I had access to better editors that did more for me). I was forced to use it in school, but with the advance of the ever present graphical user interface thats present on modern computers these days I can't see why anyone would want to continue to use it (or emacs) over an integrated development environment.
only elitist and old programmers (who fail to keep up with life) would take the stance that a terminal based editor (that requires you to type everything out by hand) is better than something with hundreds of productivity features at their disposal. which one are you?
then again, if given the choice of coding the same exact data structures from scratch on every single project, or coding the implementation of some really cool application, I'd choose to implement the really cool features, rather than spending all my time writing the same old mundane crap. Guess some folks like doing the mundane things because 1. they know how, and 2. others (wisely) don't, so it makes them somehow feel "elite."
that reminds me a lot of the child's book the emperor's new clothes in that he thinks he's running around looking cool when in fact he is just naked.
to enjoy the way you write code is one thing. using vi isn't wrong or right, its just what you prefer. using kdevelop, visual studio, eclipse, or qt's editor isn't wrong or right either, its just what other people prefer.
spewing ignorant statements like "<entity> sucks because <reason>" just proves the intelligence with which you chose to form your opinions and has the opposite effect that you were intending.
modified on Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:45 PM
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