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There is a lot of mumble jumble in it about what 'should' happen but the reference original does answer the question.

https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/9805/can-i-license-my-project-with-an-open-source-license-but-disallow-commercial-use[^]

Yes, it does but not directly and I had to read about 5 side articles to understand that it was the answer. I'm not sure why they couldn't allow the question to be answered with:

"There is no license like that in OSS"

But I don't care anyways since I have the answer for myself. Having a good, clear, solid answer on the site would only help others who had the same question as I had. Roll eyes | :rolleyes:

Now you can ask the same question again and quickly provide your own answer ( and mention it is a duplicate of TT closed question).

Look at GPL3. It makes users also open up their software, but I figured this wouldn't be a problem except for the types of users that you'd want payment from, in which case they can buy their way out.

Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

Thanks for your notes.
You are correct and that would create a Dual-License (where they buy their way out).

The thing that none of these covers is a "Licensing Tier".

Basically, if you use my Complete Program (the SaaS) and your yearly revenue exceeds X dollars then you pay $X per user.

If you use my Complete Program and your yearly revenue are less than X dollars then you pay less $.

Maybe I need a lawyer for such a thing.
It seems like such an obvious thing, that doesn't seem to exist.

It seems like this kind of thing could :
1. keep software open.
2. Make big Companies pay for dev's hard work
3. Make little Companies pay reasonable amount for dev's hard work.
4. Make hobbyists pay extremely small or nothing.

And, the point of making my SaaS Open Source is basically marketing from a sole proprietorship's type of experience.
People could see it and use it as hobbyist / students and then learn how it works and then later suggest to companies as a way to solve a problem that companies would pay for.
This would help single open source devs get attention and finally get paid too.

When they "buy their way out", you should be able to transition to the payment system you outlined.

Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

Thanks so much for discussing this with me.

I'm not sure that in my case the "buyout" would work, because of what this article says, Can You Charge for Open-Source Software? Making Money from Open-Source Projects[^]

It states that the only reason you can really charge for is:
1. delivery services - for delivering the source code
2. charging them a license if they base software off of mine or (as in most cases use my component in their software)

In my case, I'm saying, "I'd like it to be open but then charge them if they use it to a certain degree -- (hundreds or thousands of users, for example).

I believe the way OSS works with all of OSS licenses is that you can just charge them for works based upon your work.

But, I could be interpreting it wrong.

Thanks again for the great discussion.

My student days were before OSS became a concept. Yet, the OS for the mainframe at the University was distributed in source form, and the computer center staff made local modifications before assembling it (yes, the OS was written in assembly code). Every update was paid, but I have been told that the highest cost (and reason for the University skipping many updates) was the manpower cost of the local modifications.

My first employer was a mini/supermini manufacturer, with an OS that didn't allow dynamic addition of drivers, so each machine came with a tailored OS build for that specific hardware configuration. The delivery included a hardcopy printout of this tailored build, but not on a machine readable medium. One customer needed to interface some medical equipment for which there was no driver, and he asked if he could get access to the OS code in machine readable form. That was against company policy - "But you've got the OS source code, why don't you just type it in?" And he did! (He was later employed in the OS group of the manufacturer.)

I've got a microfiche copy of VAX/VMS from the same time period. The original DEC version certainly was payware, but again: You could easily obtain a non machine readable version, to read and learn from, but not intended for forking.

In those days, thousands of open source programs were accessible at ftp sites (ftp.funet.fi as one of the biggest one). A fair share of them was 'begware', presenting a header telling that you might try out the program for 30 days, but to use it after that, you have to pay so-and-so much to this and that account. The most common local modification was to delete the begging Smile | :)

So there are many examples of open source payware. There is no reason why you shouldn't do the same thing. You just must trust your fellowman to be honest and not to rip off the code and use it outside your control.

I never heard of any standard licensing terms for this kind of code publication, though. The closest I can think of is Norwegian copyright law, stating that you may make single copies of protected works for non-commercial purposes. You must do the copying yourself, you cannot hire anyone to make the copy for you, and even though you are entitled to make copies, in plural, you must do it as 'single' copies, not a serial production of a hundred copies in one sweep. There are a few other restrictions as well, but I've got at at least a couple hundred perfectly legal music CD and a few dozen movies.

(But go to our neighbor country Denmark: At least in my youth, taping music you heard on the radio was strictly illegal. It may still be illegal, for all I know. So don't assume that all European, or even Scandinavian countries are alike!)

Very interesting story and goes along with my search for a license that allows me to charge for use but keep my software open. Thanks for sharing.

trønderen wrote:
The most common local modification was to delete the begging

Yeah, makes sense in the world of Devs. We're not going to put up with the pop-ups. Laugh | :laugh:

It seems as if I would have to create a special license (get a lawyer involved) to create the license I would want.
I think I got a bit confused because there are so many Open Source licenses and I can't believe there isn't one like I'm thinking amongst them. Check out the long list at Licenses – Open Source Initiative[^]

The Dual-License thing only works if the user bases their software off of mine -- then it forces them to buy a bail out license. In my case, I want a license which kicks in when the user company has Sales Revenue of X or something like that.

Thanks for the interesting discussion. Thumbs Up | :thumbsup:

You may want to read this book, Entreprenerd (Building a Multi-Million-Dollar Business with Open Source Software) by Bruno Lowagie, the original developer of iText, an open-source Java PDF library. The book documented his journey of making a business of his open-source library.

His PDF library is dual-licensed. Many developers pirated his library without paying but he prefers his users pirate his library than using his competitors' library, in the hope that they buy a commercial license in the future. It is about mind-share vs market-share.

Feel free to click the link I provided. It is not an affiliate link.

Thanks so much for reading my post and joining the conversation.
I will definitely check out the link and book.
I have used that particular component in the past also so it sounds very interesting.
Thumbs Up | :thumbsup:

In my honest opinion, if your purpose is to charge customers for your software and make money, don't make your software open-source. Even Red Hat found it hard when it made its source code freely available and its competitors got all its bug fixes and features for free.

Even the maker of Avalonia UI closed its source code in the hope that Microsoft would buy the company sometime in the future. When you open-source your software, everyone has your IP. It makes it useful to other developers but useless to the creator in monetary terms.

modified 21-Aug-23 3:29am.

Shao Voon Wong wrote:
In my honest opinion, if your purpose is to charge customers for your software and make money, don't make your software open-source.

Shao Voon Wong wrote:
It makes it useful to other developers but useless to the creator in monetary terms.

I believe you are right on 100% with both of those statements.

It is actually quite painful to discover this because I thought being open source would be :
1. really cool and interesting and a (sideways) way of marketing the project to devs.
2. allow devs to see the code so they could vet it themselves and see how it works.

But, from everything I'm reading going the OSS route makes it basically impossible to make money -- unless it is from a side thing like maintenance or support or extending the software.

That was even more confirmed by the Bruno Lowagie link (and bunch of reading I did) that you provided.

Thanks again for the input and discussion, you've really helped me understand this.

Honestly it makes me sad too, because it kind of quashes the dream of "creating something cool and helpful and just putting it out there and then being able to support yourself".
Instead, it has to become this Official Thing that protects itself like a huge monster that will threaten or destroy anyone who tries to steal it.
Not really the software development dream I was hoping for. But I am naive.

Can you do it as you described? Yes.

Why is there no 'standard' license for that? Because there are too many variations.

And if you are going to make money then you should really talk to a lawyer. You will need to understand liability, taxes, etc.

Variations? For example I have seen ones where the free tier depended on how many users there were, the activity based on different time periods, how many servers it ran on (complicated by cores), what industries it what used in (for example not allowing government/military use), and others.

I have seen a license which allowed just inspection but did not allow making money from it. More often now I see cases that do not allow it in any 'commercial' use. Which is why I always actually read licenses for third party libraries. Versus what very often in my experience seems to be that developers think that because they found it on the web it can be used without regard to the license.

raddevus wrote:
Richard Stallman had when he created the idea of OSS

I doubt that attempting to wrap it in a ideologic context is going to mean anything.

I see now that all OSS is really just a "poison pill".
Think about it -- if you use the GPL then you require that any software based off yours is also free.
That means that only large companies who will provide support, documentation etc. will ever make any money from the software -- but no money goes to the original (ass-in-chair) developer.

I'm sure that this is what Stallman originally intended.

If you watch this video by Bruno Lowagie of iText (PDF converter) you will see the agony of doing OSS.
Open Source Survival: A Story from the Trenches - YouTube[^]

So the dream of creating an amazing system as a Developer is dead.
Instead it is the nightmare of creating a Business Which Owns the System and bullies everyone to pay for it. (Does this sound like MS, Google, etc. ?) Not the dream I was looking for.

raddevus wrote:
if you use the GPL then you require that any software based off yours is also free.

That specifically is not true.

I have seen a license, years ago (more than 10 years at a minimum), that seemed to suggest that. I have not seen it at all recently.

raddevus wrote:
I'm sure that this is what Stallman originally intended.

Stallman had no problem with people making money. His primary idea is that the code was viewable and that the product code be modified by the user. That idea came about long ago when only products were delivered (no services), when products tended to be much smaller, and when licenses due to the prior two items could be much simpler.

raddevus wrote:
So the dream of creating an amazing system as a Developer is dead.

My dream is that I get a substantial paycheck. And that requires that the company makes money.

raddevus wrote:
My Question For This Forum
Why isn't there a nice license like the one I describe above?
One where intellectual property (and all that work we do as devs) is protected.
But, where we can still make the source open?

For that, you should post it in the B&S or summon the masters of the hamsters...
@Chris-Maunder
@Sean-Ewington
@Matthew-Dennis

You might be interested on this OP

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

Well, I didn't want to bother those guys, because they are so busy.
I was just learning about OSS licenses and wondering why there wasn't a license like that.
I see also that when you write an article here you can choose any OSS license very easily so that is very nice

I was more interested in why a new License that is Open Source for minimal use and Closed/Require Payment for "larger" use hasn't been created. I guess that is up to each software dev / creater to get with an individual lawyer -- which may be cost-prohibitive.
Thanks

raddevus wrote:
Well, I didn't want to bother those guys, because they are so busy.

I don't think they would see this as a disturbance, but they are the ones that might give you the best answer. As it has happened Smile | :)

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.

I think you're confusing free (no cost) and free (freedom to do what you want). It's always bugged me that the Free Software Foundation uses the term "free" to mean "freedom" and I feel the rest of the world sees "Free software" as "I don't have to pay". I'm fairly sure if you asked any random person this ambiguity would show.

Short answer: you can do what you want already.

Other answer: look at the MongoDB licence. That not only allows you to do what you want, it also protects you from others (eg Amazon and big players) who take your code, host it, and sell it with no added value. While this certainly goes against the "freedom" of Free code, life isn't fair, and "free" has been abused enough that others have become fed up and created licences that abide by the spirit, namely allowing devs like you and I do use code as we need to, without abusing the author's intent, but also protecting the author

cheers
Chris Maunder

Thanks so much for taking time to read my "rant" and to understand what I'm trying to say.
I really appreciate it.

Chris Maunder wrote:
Short answer: you can do what you want already.

That would be fantastic! In the end, if I'm unable to release it and be paid I will still release it as OSS because I still believe in the value of sharing and what my service does*.

Chris Maunder wrote:
Other answer: look at the MongoDB licence. That not only allows you to do what you want, it also protects you from others (eg Amazon and big players) who take your code, host it, and sell it with no added value.

That's exactly what I'm looking for!!! I will take a closer look. I thought maybe someone in this modern age would've had to already run up against this and already done this. Fantastic.

*tldr;
My service :
1. written as a .NET Core WebAPI
2. allows you to post your (or your user's data) by pointing at my WebAPI - all data is encrypted (using Authenticated encryption and AES256 algo)
3. Supports any DB backend via two configuration strings -- this is the magic sauce!!! The user can simply choose a DbType (sqlite3, sqlserver, oracle, mysql, postgres, etc.) and add valid DB connection string and data will be encrypted (on client side of course, sent over https) and saved to DB.
Additionally, if the user is running on sqlite3 and wants to switch. Literally stop the WebAPI, make the two config changes and start against new DB.
4. The source code behind the magic sauce makes code extremely small and easily extendable (via interfaces & generics). IE - even if you have a new DbType you can have it supported in 15 minutes, following the source-code pattern.

The toothbrush was invented in the south.

Otherwise it would have been called a teethbrush!

Ok I'm bored...I know the way out.

I don't think before I open my mouth, I like to be as surprised a everyone else.
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I think teefbrush was originally suggested, but nonofus can count that high.

Jeremy Falcon

I remember back in the CRT days when LCDs first came out. Everyone knew LCDs had a slow refresh rate in comparison (at the time). Eventually, LCDs became the norm, people are finally like woo hoo 120Hz even though back in the day we had that all along. But to make the switch you gave up that sweet, sweet refresh rate.

Fast forward to today. We have IPS displays because we've come that far. Except IPS is old and crusty apparently. OLED is where it's at. Cool. Expect one thing...

Why are there no 4K OLED computer monitors out there? I can find QHD ones but no 4k. Noooope. I've had a 4K monitor for years now... not gonna be easy to go back. So here's the question, is QHD on an OLED still crisper? I never had one yet, but I somehow find it hard to believe an up or downscaled resolution would be as crisp as a native 4k resolution. Or is OLED that much better that QHD is still ok when scaled?

Keep in mind, I'm not getting this monitor to game on and I know OLED has deeper blacks, better contrast, etc.... but no 4K? OMG | :OMG:

Jeremy Falcon

I'm using 3840 x 1260 resolution. I think that's 4K, but I'm not sure.

The resolution is good enough for me to sit just about a foot from the screen and not see pixels.

The interesting thing is that some very fine and small fonts look multicolored even though they are supposed to be black. I suppose that's a problem with the monitor.

The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.

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