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Fail safe systems fail by failing to fail fail safe.
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That was really one of the first questions I got. After 45 mins of theory on testing I'd nearly proclaimed the latter. After that, two hours of self-study. Wait, seriously? It also appears the first language they learn is python.
Small example; a bug to fix in production costs a factor 20 compared to the bug caught in specs. Simply not true; you cannot trace every bug back to specs and some bugs are cheap to fix. Waterfall, with a sidenote of "Agile Scrum". No one does that! We do not always talk to stakeholders and I am not going to refer to a user as an "actor" just to sound smarter.
Keeping my big mouth shut is hard. At one point they were comparing codez, wondering why they acted differently.
I dislike a duck-typing language as an introduction. I dislike they can't step through the code. They should be writing a diff that shows differences between texts, but they doing bingo.
7 guys and 1 girl. She brought her pet, a "Vector". Programmable AI robot, and she used that very Python. It is a pet in training, so it kept running around the desk. I worked for the company that is located next to that school and I know they have a 3D printer. Vector is lacking a lot, but it seemed like the kid and the "robot" had an emotional bond.
There's coffee there with whipped cream on top, a bunch of toys, and all I need do is be present? And not interrupt the teacher when he is wrong. Yeah, the latter is going to be hard, judging by today. A project of a month would cost you three to six times as much if you follow their advice.
It's a good deal, I get a degree for 500 euro's. I just need to keep my big. mouth. shut.
We already know how that will end 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: I just need to keep my big. mouth. shut.
Maybe this is the real reason you are in school. To learn this very skill, and I do think it is a skill that must be learned by most people, including myself. Just a thought... 
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That, and "soft skills".
I did not even see it on the curriculum, and old devs' do not socialize.
But to be frank, they teach theory and in the real world we do things differently. It should be more practical, less ideology, and more up to date.
I will do it, ofcourse, as it is a financial bonus.
..but it's wrong, on many levels. From duck typing to documentation.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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"In theory there is no difference between Theory and Practice.
On the other hand, in Practice ... "
Some brilliant prof I had in the stone age.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
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"In theory, we do 9 months of research before coding and spend 3 months on coding."
On your first job you meet the manager that expects first results in a month, or you're out. It's not like we spend 75% of our time documenting.
Theory and the real world have never met.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Unless you are working for a consulting firm on a government contract.
Consulting from Despair.com
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: they teach theory and in the real world we do things differently. It should be more practical, less ideology,
Seems just like any school.
Certainly in my electrical engineering lab class (you know actual hands on) the two actual practicing engineers that were my lab partners (taking it for the same reason as you - more money from the company) showed that early on when they instantly recognized that a electrical component was bad. As to my confusion when I was busily trying to find any info at all that lead them to that conclusion from the class literature they just pointed out that they 'knew' it.
I believe they also pointed out that for a specific type of electrical circuit that absolutely no one would actually build it that way. Supposed to be a functioning amplifier but it was missing necessary components that would keep a practical device from running away with feedback noise.
Certainly part of the reason that to this day I do not equate a 'formal education' as an equivalent to any amount of actual professional programming.
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jschell wrote: Seems just like any school.
Most of the vacancies require accreditation; so, like any other manager, I need be young to be malleable and old enough to have experience. Oh, and a recent degree.
jschell wrote: Certainly part of the reason that to this day I do not equate a 'formal education' as an equivalent to any amount of actual professional programming
I've seen those with a degree who get confused by code.
Having a degree would not hurt me and it would be rather cheap. I know it's the wrong motivation, but there's a lot of toys there, and coffee with whipped cream. There's no downside to doing it.
I will be pissing of the next potential employee about having whipped cream in my coffee, and how that's required to prevent bugs
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Waterfall simply means one person took the time to figure out what the end product should look like. Pay me now or pay me later (analysis and design). A badly designed system makes changes harder and therefore is more expensive. Sometimes a lot. And bad designs are harder to code in the first place ... witness the saga of the "data grid", which is only one control; consistently misused; wasting countless hours.
"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I
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Is the teacher "wrong" or does he have a different view of things?
Just because I've never seen UML in the real world doesn't mean it's wrong or not useful (or not used, for that matter).
I've seen plenty of waterfall with a side note of scrum.
Waterfall is safe for customers, they know what they're going to get and they know what it's going to cost (approx.).
However, things change, and so scrum is sort of introduced during the project.
It's never fully scrum, but it isn't strictly waterfall anymore either.
In fact, that's how I do some of my projects.
A bug in production could be 20 times more expensive than catching it in the specs, or 100 times more expensive, or it could cost human lives, or it could be very cheap.
Maybe 20 is an average that we don't know about, but that someone calculated?
You can bitch about Python all you want, but it's one of the most used languages world wide, so it must be doing something right.
You focus on how it's not C#, or whatever language you code in, and therefore it must be bad (as we all do), but try to learn from it instead.
How and why is it different from your regular language?
Does it do things better or faster or easier?
I really hate school, always have.
So much so that I didn't even finish my IT degree (not even the first year) (although I already had another master's degree at that time).
I can't deny I've learned a thing or two from it though.
The Functional Programming course even changed the way I code (you'd probably say "but everything is OOP, who the heck uses Haskell!?")
I've even been able to impress people with "the stupid stuff I don't need anyway"
So yeah, if you don't want this, quit, because it's going to take a lot of time and effort.
If you do want it (or need it), change your perspective, or it's going to be a really hard-earned degree.
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Sander Rossel wrote: A bug in production could be 20 times more expensive than catching it in the specs
I dare to say that a bug is by definition an error in implementation. So I don't see how you could catch a bug in the specification stage 
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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You can't, it's bs and a pipe dream. See reply/comments to Sander.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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I write the spec, "1 + 1 = 3".
You proofread and point out the error.
Bug caught 
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That wouldn't be a bug, that would be a design flaw. 
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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I guess, depending on your perspective
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Comment 1: python statement is spot on. You might not like python, or JS or whipped cream, but when in Rome...
Comment 2: catching bugs is very expensive when you find it in production is NONSENSE. The waterfall method came from systems engineering - really big systems. So, if you're designing something like a B2 Spirit or an F22 Raptor - finding a "bug" is more of a systems requirement failure. We're talking the entire system, not software.
The problem with applying waterfall to s/w development is that waterfall's roots come from system engineering, and most software really does not play in that realm. Software's problem is that it is so flexible, you are making something to solve a problem that the customer cannot really grasp. So, you need to get something in front of them as quickly as possible - hence extreme/agile development approaches.
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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charlieg wrote: Comment 1: python statement is spot on. You might not like python, or JS or whipped cream, but when in Rome...
You are absolutely right. I want to walk as a Roman.
charlieg wrote: The waterfall method came from systems engineering - really big systems
Spot on.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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You make some good points, thanks
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Not enough context... without reading the replies, I'm thinking too much crack. What are you ranting about?
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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charlieg wrote: Not enough context... without reading the replies, I'm thinking too much crack
A crack in what?
It's the result from another post; I'm considering going back to school. More education isn't going to set me back, is it?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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lol, I was referring to the ubiquitous illegal drug - your post seemed to be the ramblings of a madman or a review of a bad interview
Charlie Gilley
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
Has never been more appropriate.
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charlieg wrote: your post seemed to be the ramblings of a madman
That's part of my nature. I'm blessed with being naturally confused.
English isn't my first language, and I was thinking cracks like in a wall, so your post didn't make sense. Drugs, unfortunately, no.
charlieg wrote: or a review of a bad interview
It sort of was. I went to see if I could do that education. My biggest obstacle is my big mouth and arrogance.
I can btw and think I will. Education never hurt anyone.
Looked it up, and crack is cheap cocaine.
You seriously don't want that in your blood. For anyone addicted, mail me today.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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The more you throw non-dismissable ads in my face about the unwanted SPen and force me to tap through them at teh rate of 1 slide every 2 seconds you bundled with my tablet, the more firmly it's name becomes "💩"Pen in my mind; and the less likely I am to ever try using it for anything. The odds that it will remain wedged into it's slot in the box until such time that along with the tablet itself it is recycled as e-waste is growing every day.
In conclusion, the $20 or so of my employers money you wasted by forcibly including the pen would have been better spent giving me a $0.01 per hour raise.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
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Dan Neely wrote: The odds that it will remain wedged into it's slot in the box until such time that along with the tablet itself it is recycled as e-waste is growing every day.
I had a Samsung tablet that came with the pen several years ago. I used the pen maybe a couple of times when the tablet was new, but never found a compelling reason to use it on an on going basis.
Keep Calm and Carry On
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