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5teveH wrote: Neither did sitting in an office with 200 other people.
I wonder if someone will look into how many more get sick that work on open offices instead of having their own rooms.
I only know of a Norwegian study that found that office workers with their own office rooms had on an average 20 sick days a year vs 24 sick days a year for open plan offices.
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Even 20 days sick a year sounds like a heck of a lot of sick days to me.
That's four weeks off sick a year!
Am I being unreasonable here?
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Not at all. As an average value, yet! Imagine how that works out!
Occasionally someone gets very sick (aside from COVID times) and has a lot of time off/rehab, but that's a very small percentage. It always sounded horrid to me that, in most US employment, one has about a week of sick leave a year (and horribly, sometimes none but that's being addressed). Now I see the other side of capping it.
This begs a question: are the typical employees in Norway an unusually sickly lot or, well, basically slackers?
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: well, basically slackers
Typical US attitude. The US also has the least amount of paid vacation per year and yet doesn't manage to get the highest productivity - or the happiest workers. Maybe WFH is fixing that a little.
I certainly don't miss the commute or the fees just to park near my office every day.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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� Forogar � wrote: Typical US attitude. The US also has the least amount of paid vacation per year and yet doesn't manage to get the highest productivity
We're not talking about "paid vacation" - we're talking about ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) ing sick leave!
At least in the US, they're two different things.
And as for your "productivity" comment, here's: 2019 data[^] - and as for "happy workers" - I'd say a good look at suicide stats[^] might adjust your attitude as to who is happy and where.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: We're not talking about "paid vacation" - we're talking about [mastadon] ing sick leave!
At least in the US, they're two different things.
In every (both) US company I've worked for, they're the same thing: Paid time off.
Separately are short/long term disability insurance; which I suspect captures a lot of the 24 average sick days/person figure from up thread.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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I understand the paid-sick-days thing. And also, disability, especially long term.
However - that many sick days taken, on the average, per employee - and that's aside from vacation - is seriously suspect. I mean, really, what about their paid vacation time (which is typically both more rational and generous in Europe)? By the time their done they'd just about qualify as a part-timers. The sick-time along averages being sick every other week (almost) for every employee.
Mitigating circumstance I've not considered: perhaps the average employee there is about 80 years old? Or do many of them work in dangerous and toxic conditions whereby they need to recover/detoxify?
Another possibility: the data that was cited is pure BS. There's not shortage of that running around.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It could be that they are taking the data from the population who take sick leave, rather than the whole working population.
So it may be that those people who take sick leave may be so ill they they need to take a long time off work, whereas those with colds "soldier" on through work without taking any sick leave.
This could then skew the figures as the figures may only be representative of people who take sick leave.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Quoting the original post that pushed the thread in this direction:
Quote: I only know of a Norwegian study that found that office workers with their own office rooms had on an average 20 sick days a year vs 24 sick days a year for open plan offices.
Clearly it include the group "office workers" and doesn't qualify it otherwise as you suggest it might.
However,GuyThiebaut wrote: This could then skew the figures as the figures may only be representative of people who take sick leave.
Then that would apply quite well to almost everywhere else - for people do that "soldier on" thing here in the US and probably almost everywhere. Even accepting your logic, what do these people have that's so disabling? Ebola?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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If everyone was self employed i.e no work no pay I think you would see the sick days plummet - when my wife lived in Australia she tells me if someone had run out of holiday it was common practice to "chuck a sickie" - who do they think picks up the bill ?
"I didn't mention the bats - he'd see them soon enough" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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GuyThiebaut wrote: Am I being unreasonable here?
Nope, I also found it high. But I don't know what they actually measured and how, I have only found the abstract and didn't feel like paying for the full article.
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GuyThiebaut wrote: Even 20 days sick a year sounds like a heck of a lot of sick days to me.
That's four weeks off sick a year!
Am I being unreasonable here?
No, not at all.
I have not had a sick day in years so 20 in a year is insane. Just dig a grave already, ya sissy. 
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20 day as average, means that there are some are sick for more than that... So there are some who sick for a month? (22.5 days are the working days in a month)
That sounds a huge number of days... I have years without a single sick-day...
EDIT
Just checked the numbers in Israel
* private sector - 4.1 days/year
* public sector - 16 days/year
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
modified 22-Mar-21 8:20am.
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In the past 26 years of places that I've worked, sick leave is wrapped up with other days off in a PTO package. That package does not make a distinction of what those hours are used for, be it bereavement, doctor appt, home emergency, etc.
Vacation days are different in that they are usually known about ahead of time and planned for.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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Interesting anniversary. Today, Mrs. Wife and I have reached the second week after the second vaccination - sort of exciting with visits to/from the kids/grandchildren now available.
I'd been "thrown out of my office" to work from home about a month before COVID kicked in, so I don't expect any changes. Well, aside from the veiled threat to all of IT (by CIO) that we may no longer be shielded from the next round of layoffs. I suggest they think it through before acting.
My commute went from 90min each way (commuter rails) to 18min (car) to zero. I like zero.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I got my second vaccination last Tuesday, so another week for me; my wife gets her first one tomorrow morning.
I was already working from home 3-4 days a week before Covid, so my life really changed very little - and in all honesty mostly for the better. We were already ordering groceries online for pickup, we're just ordering a lot more (and a lot healthier) now than before, and our spending at restaurants has dropped from $75-$100 a week to almost nothing. We never were big shoppers, so that's no loss. And now I don't even have to go inside the library; I can either borrow e-books to read on my various devices or request that physical books be sent to our local branch library and then pick them up using curbside delivery. I'm really hoping they'll keep that service around after everything goes back to whatever "normal" will be.
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Yup - the new normal has had a great opportunity to evolve and there is the saying/song from circ. WW I "how ya' gonna' keep 'em down on the farm . . . ? "
My place I think has plans to continue it (although they don't say as much, yet) because the own one building but the main building's rental space in Brooklyn (Manhattan became to costly) and one reason I think they sent me home in January was to make more space in their own building so they don't have to rent so much space - and now, with everyone on a VM and the test forced upon them, they discovered that working from home saves a real lot of potential rental (and associated costs). $Millions.
Our eating out hasn't changed much - but it was really take-out. Except for a period of closure, we still do Chinese takeout about once a week and G-d's gift to mankind, pizza, about once/month. We never did the grocery delivery: I saw a "shopper" in a store - unmasked &etc. and realized it's worth the risk to not take that risk - "Senior Hours" at many stores helped a lot in shortening the lines. Basically, we're minimalists to begin with and our normal shopping/storeables rabbits kept us out of the shortages by hoard of hoarding idiots.
Recreation outdoors was a few parks - mostly wide-open space. One vacation, to the Finger Lakes region of NY (at the time almost COVID free, later a hot-spot). Much of that, too, by it's nature, was wide-open scenery via hiking trails.
Only big loss was a fully planned trip to Hawaii. With good fortune we managed to get back all of the money - even the travel insurance (Worth it when booking a trip in December to be taken in June). Possibly because our plans were pre-COVID and thus we were truly blameless for having our plans screwed, everyone was merciful. An patience: I didn't jump on air-line vouchers right away but waited for the slowly rolling time frames to make the refunds of non-refundable tickets happen.
But (after my verbose interlude), I think the work-at-home will be a big part of some of the new normal. Not much help for hands-on manufacturing work but for office workers it saves them a bunch money in rental space (and utils) on one end and burning fuel to travel. Even if one is feeling a bit sick there's no danger of spread in you work from home.
What that other old saying? Something like "There's no wind so ill that it doesn't blow some good".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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True or false: perhaps dieters might eat a famous person? (9)
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Bit Celery ? anag of Celebrity where a bit is 0 or 1 (aka True or False)?
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CELEBRITY it is!
True or false BIT
perhaps (anag)
dieters might eat CELERY
a famous person?
You are up tomorrow! 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Doh! I'd hoped I was wrong.
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I thought it might be celebrity - but had no idea how to get there!
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It's a bugger when that happens, isn't it? 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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And how it just does not work with interfaces or base classes. At least, I can't get it to work, so maybe I'm stupid.
Doing some googling, there's things like HasBaseType that have to be manually coded in the OnModelCreating method, or in the query, potentially using .Include, but really.
Why can't it just figure out what to do based on the class structure?
Maybe it's me. But I can understand why people use Dapper. 
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