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When hiring for computer science positions in the Engineering field, math and artistic talent are the two most important things we look at. No math talent, no artistic talent, no interest!
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Artistic talent is normally a good indication of creativity. That and good math skills are what we've found yields the best software developer / programmer. If I require a "plugger", I can hire an Engineer.
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bwallan wrote: Artistic talent is normally a good indication of creativity. That and good math skills are what we've found yields the best software developer / programmer
What kind of application will this person code?
And is a BSc or MSc degree required to be hired?
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Pretty much anything an Engineer can think up for which to write software. Everything from converting a sophisticated Excel spreadsheet to a corporate application to writing a simulation model for economics or some process in the Oil & Gas industry.
We normally hire B.Sc. Computer Science grads and offer funding to complete a M.Sc. if the individual wishes to go that route. But a smart, creative B.Sc. individual can work wonders!
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bwallan wrote: But a smart, creative B.Sc. individual can work wonders!
Any smart individual with a passion can work wonders 
Formal schooling means nothing to me.
Well, it means you've been able to stand school for a couple of years, which is actually bad enough as it is.
Unfortunately school means a lot to other people (like you) though 
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Formal schooling means the world! It means a person has the capacity to think and a solid knowledge base as a foundation on which to add experience. I've fired far too many "experts" that think experience is the total package. It isn't!
As for your "couple of years", a university degree is four years. A couple of years indicates a technical school certificate which means close to nothing in our organization(s). It might be good for an automobile mechanic, electrician or plumber but not for computer science!
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bwallan wrote: Formal schooling means the world! It means a person has the capacity to think and a solid knowledge base as a foundation on which to add experience.
I guess I have to agree with you there... I know very few people who haven't enjoyed formal schooling, but could still be considered "smart" or "bright". Although I know very few people who haven't had formal schooling, mostly some old folks.
And in the Netherlands we have 'levels' of schooling (kind of like attending school at low, medium or high difficulty) and there's usually a clear distinction in "smarts" between people from different levels of education.
Of course I can't say if better schooling makes smarter or if smarter people attend better schools
That said, proper formal education does not guarantee a good programmer.
I know people with a university degree in programming, physics or maths, yet they just don't seem to understand programming.
bwallan wrote: experience is the total package. It isn't!
Couldn't agree more!
I've worked with a "senior developer with over eight years of experience" and we got into a lot of arguments because I surpassed him after a year of experience (which, of course, he didn't like).
I should add I was really a better programmer after a year, coming from zero, and this isn't me being an arrogant jerk.
The problem is he had been doing the same thing for eight years, which doesn't equal eight years of experience.
I see that a lot. Working for x time in a certain field does not give you x time experience.
Currently I have over five years of experience and some formal schooling (studying at Open University, where, as you can read, I'm stuck on maths).
Additionally I got me some Microsoft certificates (to make up for that lack of formal schooling) in C# and SQL Server.
I wonder, based on that, would you (purely theoretical) consider me for a job interview?
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Sander,
We only hire IT personnel with at least a B.Sc. in Computer Science and a strong indicator for artistic talent. We want a "creative/intelligent" person with a formal Computer Science education; someone to whom we can assign a project, and have him/her design a solution and carry it through to a final application (or system). Add the experience gained from varied development projects and you have a powerful development team.
Maybe we are being narrow-minded? But in the 40+ years I've been in this business this approach has worked out the best for us and people we've hired, some of whom have been with us for 30+ years.
bwa
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bwallan wrote: Maybe we are being narrow-minded?
Well, a little if you think that only people with at least a B.Sc. can be good programmers, but I'm sure that's not what you're saying 
In fact I now work at a company with the same policy (I guess I only got in because they were in dire need of people).
Their reason is because if someone messes up at a customer at least my company can say the person has all the right education. In my case the customer could complain that I'm a friggin art major coming to do their IT! I get that.
Compare it to other professions, like lawyers, doctors, pilots... A degree is necessary by law to work in those fields!
I guess we're lucky (well, I'm lucky) that anyone can work in IT.
If you can get enough educated employees it's a luxury that you can only hire those.
You've frustrated me a little because I'm pretty sure I'd do good at your company (well, I don't know what you do, but let's say for a moment it's something I know), but I'm not getting in because I lack the required education.
Let's put it this way, at my current company I'm the only one without technical/IT education, but in no way am I behind in knowledge (well, some people know more about some stuff, but I know more about other stuff).
At my previous company I was also the only one without a technical/IT degree, but I left because I was done learning and I was the one doing the teaching!
It's all the more reason to get that degree though... Which is going to take me about ten more years next to a full time job etc. 
Thanks, I've found it very interesting to hear your point of view on this topic.
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"You've frustrated me a little because I'm pretty sure I'd do good at your company (well, I don't know what you do, but let's say for a moment it's something I know), but I'm not getting in because I lack the required education."
I don't know what you do at your current company but I know a proficiency in math & physics, system analysis/design, etc. is a necessary requirement in our area of expertise, i.e.: reservoir simulation models, refinery modelling, mechanical vibration analysis, oil & gas economics simulation models, etc. In most cases a two year Technical degree simply doesn't work out well...
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Because why not, I'll start:
Can you be allergic to your underwear?[^] - It seems to be one of the most common allergies among celebrities.
Your turn now.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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from that same page: Why you should wrap your keys in aluminum foil[^]
Because it's more eco-friendly than wrapping my skull.
Next.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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I've just posted a message and I've seen "Praise" between "Question" and "Answer"...
Is this new? I'm starting to be too old to read?
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Good catch!
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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You mean you haven't finished reading The Lounge yet? When you get to the last page, it turns out that Bob did it[^].
"Praise" was added on Saturday to combat the negativity[^].
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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I missed it... 
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Crap... now I'll have to double-down vote to counter the praise... balance and all...
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I`m more a Yin and Yang type. When a post has been downvoted, then the next poster should bring balance to the Force and upvote it, seeking whatever merit in the post he can. And the other way around of course.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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I hope that this is the correct forum; if not, please direct me to the right one.
Please could someone advise on a good Ad Blocker for the Edge browser. I am reluctant to download one at random from the web as it is nigh on impossible to decide if they are any good or if they are malware. I have trust in CPians to give honest unbiased suggestions.
Please do not respond by saying "Ditch Edge and get FireFox / Chrome / IE6 / Opera".
Thanks
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Ditch Edge and get FireFox / Chrome / Opera
No one would recommend you use IE6... 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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AFAIK, Edge doesn't support extensions at all yet, so anything that claims to be an ad-blocker for Edge is almost certainly lying.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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