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We have a project that contains almost 3 dozen sub-projects consisting of over 500,000 lines of code, and it's working fine. It only takes 7 minutes to compile the whole she-bang on a reasonably modern system (we're using a P4 3.6 box with 512mb of RAM).
And since when does Microsoft worry about "standards"? VC7 certainly isn't that much better than VC6 at compliance.
You guys go ahead and "dis" VC6 all you want, but it's still a viable platform for a lot of folks and has the added advantage of NOT requiring a 25mb runtime to be shipped with your product. At work we use the MFC DLL's but at home, I statically link everything, and most of my apps compile down to just 250K. Even if I didn't statically link, the MFC DLL I would be shipping is still far smaller than the .net runtime.
Final point - I don't have to pay money to keep using VC6, and it certainly doesn't require spending $2000 on a new MSDN subscription.
------- sig starts
"I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt
"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
We have a project that contains almost 3 dozen sub-projects consisting of over 500,000 lines of code, and it's working fine. It only takes 7 minutes to compile the whole she-bang on a reasonably modern system (we're using a P4 3.6 box with 512mb of RAM).
Ours was 85 projects and VC6 crashed for most of the team several times a day. Opening the class view was a sure way to do it, as was shutting down the development environment.
Machines would also fail to build at random, for no apparent reason.
THe team wasted a great deal of time over these issues. We didn't move to VS2003 by choice, we were forced to by the bugs in VC6...
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
And since when does Microsoft worry about "standards"? VC7 certainly isn't that much better than VC6 at compliance.
It's enough to make a huge difference for us, in particular with regard to the C++ compiler and STL (which quite frankly is hell to use with VC6).
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
You guys go ahead and "dis" VC6 all you want, but it's still a viable platform for a lot of folks and has the added advantage of NOT requiring a 25mb runtime to be shipped with your product. At work we use the MFC DLL's but at home, I statically link everything, and most of my apps compile down to just 250K. Even if I didn't statically link, the MFC DLL I would be shipping is still far smaller than the .net runtime.
Just to be clear: I'm not "dissing" VC6 - merely pointing out that as a platform it's showing its age. We still in fact use it for two products, and I'm very well aware of the advantages and failings of each VC platform, right the way from VC 1.52 through to VS2005.
For example, the VC6 resource editoris far simpler to use than that in VS2003, but its automation interface is cripped to the point where writing anything beyond a simple add-in is virtually impossible. It's the latter (more than anything that kills it as a viable target platform for us...though lack of support for ATL7 and WTL7.5 comes a close second.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
Final point - I don't have to pay money to keep using VC6, and it certainly doesn't require spending $2000 on a new MSDN subscription.
No, and neither do I to keep using VS2003 (upgraded for $19 from VS2002, which was given to me for free for porting ResOrg to VS.NET)!
Anna
Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services
Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
"Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart"
- A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
And since when does Microsoft worry about "standards"? VC7 certainly isn't that much better than VC6 at compliance.
VC7 really isn't much better in compiliance than VC6, but VC7.1 is really better. VC 7.0 is officialy in compliance with standard at 83%(VC6 probably little less). VC 7.1 is officialy in compliance with standard at 98%!
"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." — Winston Churchill
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1 Please write in english you know, International english! something easy to understand for other than english people. your first sentence can't be understand! 'it sounds like you've some axes to grind. If you expect everyone to share your views you are likely to be disappointed though'
2 I'm talking specially about 'Media center' which has the same start and task bar and menu but in diffrent colors, now if we even forget that, could you mention some major change over XP? Don't start with avalon please!
3 Have you seen 'MAC OS X86'? Some years older and I beleive much better in UI.
And it's not just UI. Did you compare root folder of Win XP and Vista? Do that please. try to count diffrences in files!!! I never saied Vista is a bad OS, I'm just comparing it to older versions and what I say is that it's not the result of 5 years work. It has not (as I saw) any major diffrences with XP, but consider other companies comming to the field. MS must be worried and do something.
I'm searching the facts. go and check qualities of EASport and MS games. What I found was surprising. MS was better improving, up to 2000 which has a lot of improvment (start of .net) but since then they just failed. What else did I find? If you were to spend 1 dollar in MS in 2000 now you were able to take 18 dollars, but in EASport you could take 80$ now. Look at google and Web searching. Take a look at Servers and Linux.
I'm not in US, but try to see things clearly. If I'm making mistake, then please tell me. I beleive Microsoft should do some changes, othervise they might be looser even in OS.
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Hamed, about your point regarding the Windows UI, I agree 100%. The only time it has radically changed is when Windows 95 came out after Windows 3.1. That is what we can call a complete change.
Since then, 10 years have passed and Windows UI is pretty much the same. Sure, some smooth scrolling here and some jazzy colors there, but where is the innovation that one can see in Mac OS incarnations (or any Mac product for the matter)?
I don't use a Mac and neither I am a MS hater... Like Hamed, I would just like to see Microsoft innovate their UI. Amen.
Salil Khedkar [^]
-- modified at 0:56 Thursday 29th September, 2005
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I am sure you haven't seen the latest Windows Vista since it has several enhancements that you might be missing, just to mention some: the new least user privilege access where you can do stuff safely even being an administrator on the box, the UI now has Search integrated all over the place but finally really fast, the new Windows Explorer has several enhancements including grouping, collapse and expand of groups, filtering, virtual folders, the new breadcrumb bar and several more. The new IIS 7 which adds a huge amount of features to really empower developers to create their own modules finally with all the power of IIS. New networking stack, new Internet Explorer, the new UI animations, the new Aero glass theme that has translucid windows, the new Alt+Tab window switcher, and I can just keep going and going. By the way I do love it and think it is far better than Windows XP.
Regards,
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I use vista on a notebook, and I have to say: It's quite fast for a system that asks so much of your hardware. Ofcourse, it's the first beta and it has a lot of errors.
I don't share the view on the wrong choices of MS for .NET, they choose quite well to promote .NET in this way. I have the same experiences as Anna, it's a nightmare to develop a large solution in VC6. No I keep developing in C# and MC++ that's for me the way to go.
WM.
What about weapons of mass-construction?
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Hamed Mosavi wrote:
Just look at results and VC++ 6 is the winner! I don't think people use managed C++ with VC++ 6:laugh
Please, I wont you to Stick to VS C++ 6.0, that makes more loot for me
Blogless
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what are you trying to say?
-prakash
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Does anyone here support the same code base on VC++ 6 and one or both of VC++ 2003, VC++ 2005?
It's easy to support 2003 and 2005 - since both compilers are pretty much standards compliant (except that 2005 throws all those secure CRT related warnings for the string functions).
But things like for-loop variable-scope are incompatible between 6 and 200x and it's difficult to get the same code to compile on both compilers without resorting to a lot of #ifdefs.
Anyone here does that? Support multiple versions I mean.
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Yes.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But things like for-loop variable-scope are incompatible between 6 and 200x and it's difficult to get the same code to compile on both compilers without resorting to a lot of #ifdefs.
Not at all - the only #ifdef s i have are around large chunks of code that are only necessary on one system or the other (mostly dealing with the deficiancies of the CHtmlView class under VS6). Most code that compiles under VS2k3 will also build under VS6 - in fact, my inital use for VS2k3 was as a sort of "lint" for VS6, since the compiler caught a lot of things that were likely to cause problems at runtime, but that the VS6 compiler allowed.
As for the for loop issue - yeah, the scope changed. But if you were depending on VS6's broken behavior, then you were headed for trouble already - the flakey scoping would cause problems in certain optimized builds even on VS6. I write nearly all my for loops in this manner:
const int nLimit = fixed limit retrieval;
int i;
for (i=0; i<nLimit; ++i)
{
} ... which works just dandy with both versions of the compiler.
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So do you suppress the CRT string function related warnings in 2005?
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VS2k5 compiler use is infrequent still - i mostly use it as an XSL editor.
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Shog9 wrote:
i mostly use it as an XSL editor.
LOL - I hope no one from the VS 2005 UI coding team sees this - they may be - er, insulted
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They shouldn't be - five years ago, the VS UI for something as simple as editing HTML was laughable (remember InterDev?) - now, it's comfortable and helpful for a wide range of markup. They've done a good job on the UI (though it's still a memory hog).
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Shog9 wrote:
... which works just dandy with both versions of the compiler.
Yeah, that works - but it's not good code at times. Sometimes you would prefer the for-loop variable to be scope-restricted within the for-loop.
In fact, some of the code I have (written ages ago probably with VC++ 4.x or earlier) uses the for-loop variable outside the for loop. Something like :-
for(int i=0; i<x; i++)
{
}
int y = i*2;
That's not good code really. Of course, I can do what you do and move the declaration of i to just before the for-loop. But it's not very good.
I really like the 2005 compiler - but one reason I like it is because the VC++ 6 compiler sucked!
-- modified at 10:52 Tuesday 27th September, 2005
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Of course, I can do what you do and move the declaration of i to just before the for-loop. But it's not very good.
:shrug:
At worst, you have an extra loop counter in scope (you're no worse off than normal in VS6). At best, you have an indication of where the loop ended - this isn't a technique i use often, but occasionally it makes sense.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I really like the 2005 compiler
Yeah, it's pretty nice - i'll be happy when it's the norm.
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We do with ResOrg, although there are platform specific projects within the solution.
Having said that if we were to overhaul the code now it would be likely to go VS2003/2005 specific for the simple reason that ATL3 just can't support the functionality we use as a matter of course now. And don't get me started on the VC6 version of STL...
Anna
Riverblade Ltd - Software Consultancy Services
Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch
"Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart"
- A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work.
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Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote:
And don't get me started on the VC6 version of STL...
Shudder... tell me about it!
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Does anyone here support the same code base on VC++ 6 and one or both of VC++ 2003, VC++ 2005?
Yes, but only after branching the new version of our codebase from the old VC6 branch. Development on the old branch is strictly bug fixes - all new features are implemented in the new branch. So strictly speaking, the codebases are different and don't require conditional compilation.
I guess it's very different if you're supporting an SDK/lib.
/ravi
My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536
Home | Music | Articles | Freeware | Trips
ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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Ravi Bhavnani wrote:
I guess it's very different if you're supporting an SDK/lib.
You bet!
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
the same code base on VC++ 6 and one or both of VC++ 2003, VC++ 2005?
Nah. Ported all code to VC++ 7.1 two years ago with only minor to moderate problems.
However, it seems I'll have to port some of it to GCC on Linux. Now, that's going to be fun.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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The current VC6 projects are all legacy.
But our shared codebase, exactly code modules that are shared between the projects is also used in the old VC6 projects.
The greatest problem is the loop conformance, but we started years ago with the following define thats fixes the problem:
#if _MSC_VER < 1300
#ifdef MFX_USE_STANDARDFOR
#define for if(0);else for
#endif
#endif
So loop conformance was never a problem for us.
templates are...
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Yep, the VCF runs on VC6 (this is what I use to develop it on at home), and several of the other members make sure it builds and runs on VC7.0, and VC7.1. No word on 2005 yet.
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Do people use VS2005 for developing commercial applications? It's still a beta so I feel like it's a little bit premature to use it, isn't it?
Marc Soleda
... she said you are the perfect stranger she said baby let's keep it like this... Tunnel of Love, Dire Straits.
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