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Message Closed
modified 2-Sep-21 5:20am.
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I think this reply was meant for the message above. 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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They did something similar with:
System.Data.SqlClient
Microsoft.Data.SqlClient
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inconsistency is everywhere: it looks back at me in the mirror
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Sounds like an excellent decision by technical management at Microsoft. Yes, why bother doing a simple rename of the specific API namespace when so much more fun could be had working out the many expected complaints between the two development environments?
Oh well, it is good to see that technical management idiocy in the US is still alive and well.
At least it is consistent...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftwareoutlook.com
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In my experience, seeing consistency in code syntax across domains, or lack of needless duplications of functionality/code ... would have been a surprise
Maybe there's a trade-off here ? If you have one "code czar" (like Stroustrup, Torvalds ?), or one "star chamber," with strong oversight ... you get more consistency, but, perhaps, slow down, or even stifle innovation ? And, if you have the grows by accretion, by accident, model, with multiple teams who don't coordinate, by survival of the fittest, by catering to the desires of groups of users with different usage patterns ... you get today's C#, or, PhotoShop ?
I'm not trying to blame developers here The pressures in the context that frame what devs can do, or have time to do, are often coming from top-down as program managers respond to marketing demands, as "feature races" drive budget allocations, as corporate execs respond to shareholder demands.
In other words, it's a mess, just like life ?
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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This is a funny place to be asking this, but I assume there are a fair number of business folks in the Lounge, so perhaps I'll find a gem of an answer here.
We are a 25 person development company. We have always had a very flat structure with me as the CEO/founder being the de-facto HR manager. Now, I am thinking it is time to hire an HR group to be a repository to answer all HR questions.
- Does anyone have a suggestion for a solid outsourced HR group to help manage this for their company?
- What pitfalls should I look out for using an outsourced HR group?
- Would I be better to hire an individual for this specifically?
Thanks in advance!
David
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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I do have first hand experience dealing with 3rd party that sits between my customer and me. It is very similar.
This customer has outsourced insurance verification for contractors. At least that is how it started out.
Then they added verification of quality control procedures, then they added verification of training procedures, and so on and so on.
Their current mission is:
.... is an online contractor and supplier management platform of data-driven products and services that help manage risk, support sustainability and strengthen relationships. It helps reduce unnecessary duplication associated with traditional qualification processes.
There is enormous scope creep to justifiy their existence.
The contractors are on the receiving end of overbearing rigidity, frequent requests to update procedures, and ever increasing requirements for insurance coverage, everything is cookie cutter style. You don't comply you get downgraded.
There is no longer a personal connection with the customer, that relationship was not strengthned.
The relationship with the customer is now only based on a grade for how well you comply with the procedures set in place by the company in between.
Every fad comes down the pipeline and is implemented.
The contractors hate this 3rd party.
The cost of compliance is sky-rocketing, and as a result the customer sees rapidly increasing cost.
I don't think your candidates will have a much different experience.
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I don't think your candidates will have a much different experience.
Some nice thoughts here.
I actually don't mind my being the boss and the HR person as well - there are even advantages.
Just yesterday, because I addressed an issue head on, it took what could have been a contentious issue, de-escalated things and got everyone to a place where they understood the company position and came to a solid mutual understanding. An agency would not have been able to help with this and would have drawn the pain out and perhaps not gotten it to a solution.
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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good luck! Just know that the quality of treatment of individuals goes down when they are called resources. Instead of say by their NAME!
Maybe call it personal coordinator or something instead of HR.
My .02
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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And remember that nowadays these people are more woke than anyone else. Whatever that means.
These days I have more contempt for HR than sales or even marketing...good thing I'm working for a tiny company that has no need for an HR department.
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Good point @dandy72, about them being more woke than anyone else.
They are out to change the world, including your world.
Whether you like it or not.
As an illustration the 3rd party I am dealing with all of a sudden disallowed the section of our Health, Safety, and Environment manual, because....... tada.....we could no longer use the terminology of MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets). Stern words accompanied this edict: "only in a historical context".
Turn out there is a UN program that is being pushed and we are all now supposed to use SDS (Safety Data Sheets).
To the OP my recommendation is to keep things simple, and have someone you know and trust handle this for you.
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To the OP my recommendation is to keep things simple, and have someone you know and trust handle this for you.
My wife? 
Sounds like another vote against an agency....
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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rnbergren wrote: the quality of treatment of individuals goes down when they are called resources
William Shakespeare (almost) wrote: Hath not a Resource eyes? Hath not a Resource hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Manager is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? ...
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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hilarious!
PS follow-up.
I highly recommend you higher a person to be your Personal go between. They can coordinate any thing you want to out source like payroll, insurance etc... and also serve as a sounding board for you when you have questions about legal stuff. Buttttttt!!!!! Don't ever let them think they are in charge. They are there to help people including you. Not themselves.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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Since you're the founder, etc. you should write some policy / procedure paper.
The (new) HR group will surely misinterpret and mangle your vision.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Since we actually have built a "All you need to know before you start to work for us" book (100+ pages now), including things like coding standards, how to deal with customers, marketing, etc., - having this clearly written down is a great suggestion!
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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From a similar place, but in a distant past, I would strongly recommend you look at offloading some of the HR. 25 employees is a lot to manage in totality. Especially if you also have a technical role.
My take on HR is it not being about normal day-to-day. You don't need HR and actively shouldn't have HR between you and your fellow employees for normal life. HR is about compliance, which in some juristrictions is complex, and often bizarre. It is very much about giving you tools to manage when things go wrong. Like insurance. I don't plan to total the car but when the Tesla didn't see me at the lights, be good to have an insurance company to deal with Elon.
I think HR is really quite a difficult task. Building the processes that work for your organisation and giving you compliance and tools for when things break without becoming intrusive in employee relations. Employee relations is not HR's job.
In summary, I wouldn't recommend a 'young and personable HR graduate'. That could easily subsume you in the process and offload the important 'getting on with your employees' bit which you and personable HR graduates enjoy much more than the hard yards of compliance and process. I would strongly recommend looking for a competent outsource organisation which can help you with compliance and processes at arms length. I realise that may be hard to find as, at least in my distant past, the industry has its share of dudes with fins and teeth who will only talk to the 'decision maker'.
Good luck with the task.
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I would strongly recommend looking for a competent outsource organisation which can help you with compliance and processes at arms length.
This is the part I wanted to get help with, so I don't have to deal with all the California regulation stuff. I'm sure we've missed some required training or posting in the office of business laws. But beyond the first post linking to the Inc. article, no one has yet had a suggestion of an external HR system they think does great work for them.
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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What a terrible idea 😂 Have you talked about this with the devs? If I was working for you I would be looking for another job 🤯
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I talk to my entire team (devs+sales+marketing+admin) before making any decision that will affect everyone!
My goal is really to find someone who will make sure we don't miss the compliance things we could eventually be tagged with, much less dealing with people.
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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David I am not a developer nor have I worked in a Software Company
That said if your goal is to be compliant I would suggest your hire someone to review your current
company standards As a long time Pharmacist we were regulated by the State Board of Pharmacy who did
periodic inspections at the Retail Level it was not real serious but when I moved over to a Teaching
Hospital as a Director the review was a lot more rigorous Our HR did not understand anything about
the skills to work in a teaching environment let alone a Hospital If they had a Pharmacy License
that was all that was needed
Paying for a review could give you suggestions that would help in deciding on a outside company or
hiring a full or part time HR person
I have installed a couple of Hospital Systems and am amazed at how BIG Hospitals do not listen to
the talent they have When I suggested to one Hospital CEO they use a Pharmacist to manage the Pharmacy side of the system the IT people wanted my head in the end the CEO went with my recommendation
When I pointed out they lost half a million in billing over 6 months might have had something to do
with the acceptance of my recommendation
My BEST it is great that you reached out to the amazing talent that hangs out here
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This depends on what you are thinking an HR person or group will do for your company.
Is this the payroll department, keeping track of hours and salaries and vacation days and benefits?
Is this the person/team responsible for hiring new team members, or at least dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's filing the necessary paperwork?
Is this the person/team that handles disputes between staff members or handling discipline issues when somebody crosses a line?
Knowing precisely what you need will direct you accordingly; just keep in mind that always, always, HR exists to protect the company from its employees.
An ordinary average guy
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Is this the payroll department, keeping track of hours and salaries and vacation days and benefits?
Not needed here. We have a "take what you need" vacation policy that people use appropriately. We cover all health/vision/dental insurance that falls in our plans. Being generous means we don't have to waste time and resources tracking this, which IMO saves us money in the end.
Is this the person/team responsible for hiring new team members, or at least dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's filing the necessary paperwork?
Hiring is done by me right now - and most of the paperwork is clearly documented so my admin can get it done quickly.
Is this the person/team that handles disputes between staff members or handling discipline issues when somebody crosses a line?
I'm fine handling most disputes, but discipline issues are a concern, especially in our current age of litigious retribution.
Knowing precisely what you need will direct you accordingly; just keep in mind that always, always, HR exists to protect the company from its employees.
A major item for me personally is that if an employee does fall off the rails (has happened a couple times in 16 years), it is helpful to have someone other than the BOSS to talk that employee through their issues and to come to a resolution is just not THE BOSS SAYS SO.
"Qulatiy is Job #1"
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I have a Huawei phone - a P30 Lite - and it's pretty damn good, especially for the price. But ... it's banned from Android updates, though it does have Google Play and all those apps.
But I just had a notification about "Petal Maps" which is the Huawei version of Google maps - so I tried it.
Good grief but it's quick! Much faster to plan a route, plans the route that I'd take (unlike Here WeGo and Google Maps which both recommend long, slower routes), it gives speed limit warnings (like Her WeGo but unlike Maps), it shows roadworks(unlike HereWeGo, but like Maps), and the display moves very smoothly.
I haven't tried it's actual voice instructions yet - I'll do that tomorrow - but so far it's looking like a prime contender to replace Here WeGo which I really like, but ... it's traffic isn't good.
It may report to Beijing every where I go (I dunno, but I'm sure somebody will tell me it does even if it doesn't), but do I care? Not a lot, no 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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