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trønderen wrote: If you can't tell which machine is faster from the "experienced performance" when using ordinary production software
What is ordinary? As an embedded developer I tend to use yocto quite a bit and trust me, on 5-7 hours builds it makes a lot of difference. Same goes for rendering.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I am still reasonably sure that if your build cluster had its speed raised by 10% without telling anyone, it wouldn't cause everybody to go 'Wow!'. Or, if two build clusters were available, one 10% faster than the other, you couldn't tell on which of them your five hour build had been run, without some sort of timing - read: benchmarking. And: My experience of five hour builds are that the build artifacts and logs are available when I arrive at work the next morning. If the log reveals that the build was completed at 3:30 am rather than at 3:00, it doesn't affect my experience at all. (If the build cluster is so overloaded that my build is not completed at 08:15 am, we certainly need more than a 10% upgrade!)
Maybe you have extremely stable build times. My experience is that wall clock time for a build to complete easily varies by more than 10% from one build to the next. Obviously, I am assuming fairly identical, clean and complete rebuilds. There will a few source code updates - that's why you rebuild - but they are not responsible for any 10% variation in build time. Even if you rebuild with no source code change at all, 10% shorter or longer wall clock times before the job completes is perfectly normal.
The context for my remark was the Core i9 12900K (with lots of references to the Ryzen 9 5950X) - not a typical processor you would choose for a build cluster. The typical application area is for interactive use, read: gaming. A gamer won't be able to distinguish between 100 and 90 frames per second, or between 50 and 45 ms response time. Or for other kinds of use: That huge file copying task completing in 20 or 18 seconds. Or your video being rendered in two minutes or one minute and 48 seconds.
Maybe you could tell by checking your watch, i.e. benchmarking it. But if a speedup (or slowdown) of 10% may or may not be activated, and you were to guess whether it is active or not, with no access to timing devices of any kind, do you think you could tell from the experience of a single run (of a game, a video rendering, a database query, ...)? From ten successive runs?
Methinks not. Neither from interactive user interfaces nor system builds.
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The only time I've seen a truly notable improvement in build times was when we moved from a 6 drive RAID 5 array to a 24 drive RAID 5 array. Our 75-90 minute builds came down to under 20. We'd see further improvement using SSD's obviously.
I'm not sure how RAID works with SSD's. We use RAID 5 mostly to increase capacity and partly for error recovery. I've replaced each of the drives in our older build machine at least once, and a couple of them twice or three times. Never had to re-image the machine yet after a drive failure.
Software Zen: delete this;
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I can't tap my AMD out in terms of pegging all the cores. It's too damned fast, but single thread performance could be better, IMO. I peg one of the cores pretty routinely when I'm developing. It's unfortunate that compilation can't be more of a parallel operation. Too much interdependent mess. I mean, you can get around some of it in C# or C and C++ by using a GLR parser on the front end but that still leaves tree selection from the GLR process, and type/member resolution, which at best, with GLR, you could brute force try each tree on a different core, but you really can't parallelize beyond that. Meh.
Real programmers use butterflies
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The stuff I am doing now can (practically) peg has many cores as I allow it too. I am using a 32-core Threadripper machine right now and I set my solver to use 61 cores and it pegs them all. We reserve three other cores for communication and UI. This is really fun stuff. I wrote it to use either the CPU or a GPU and it is very interesting. My 3090 GPU (with a 5900 CPU) is slightly faster than this Threadripper but a 24-core EPYC CPU using 45 threads is faster than both of them. We have had two machines with EPYC CPUs on order since June and there is no delivery date in sight.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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honey the codewitch wrote: I can't tap my AMD out in terms of pegging
Your choice of words is... disturbing. And strangely arousing. But mostly disturbing.
GCS d--(d-) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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For the record, you are the one that took it there, not me.
Just for anyone taking notes. 
Real programmers use butterflies
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Does CPU speed make that much difference? In what type of uses does it really matter?
Don't the ram, disk drives etc, make a difference to overall computer performance?
My machines have always run faster than I can think  .
Zaphod
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It can, it largely depends on the nature of the problem. There is always some limiting factor involved and all of those you mentioned can be possibilities.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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A perfectly balanced system has bottlenecks everywhere.
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I've been working on a complicated set of templates used to render state machines for matching text in various ways.
The templates are complicated because they allow for targeting multiple languages by plugging in new templates.
Prior, I was just making one template per target per option, so like SQL matching code vs C# matching code would be two templates.
Well now, it's many templates but, they're structured such that you're forced to basically produce the same code regardless of target (like C#, or SQL). For example, the following is the basic structure of a matching state machine in an language independent way.
a.Comment("Matches text based on a DFA table and block end DFA table");
a.MethodPrologue("None",true,"TableMatcherMatchReturn","TableMatch","TableMatcherMatchImplParams");
a.MatcherCreateResultList();
a.TableMatcherMatchDeclarations();
a.ReadCodePoint();
a.InputLoopPrologue();
a.MatcherResetMatch();
a.TableMachineLoopPrologue();
a.TableMove("dfa");
a.TableMachineLoopEpilogue();
a.TableAcceptPrologue();
a.TableIfBlockEndPrologue();
a.TableStateReset();
a.InputLoopPrologue();
a.TableMachineLoopPrologue();
a.TableMove("blockEnd");
a.TableMachineLoopEpilogue();
a.TableAcceptPrologue();
a.TableMatchYieldResult();
a.BreakInputLoop();
a.TableAcceptEpilogue();
a.TableRejectPrologue();
a.UpdateLineAny();
a.AppendCapture();
a.ReadCodepoint();
a.AdvanceCursor();
a.TableRejectEpilogue();
a.TableStateReset();
a.InputLoopEpilogue();
a.TableStateReset();
a.ContinueInputLoop();
a.TableIfBlockEndEpilogue();
a.TableIfNotBlockEndPrologue();
a.TableMatchYieldNonEmptyResult();
a.TableIfNotBlockEndEpilogue();
a.TableAcceptEpilogue();
a.UpdateLineAny();
a.ReadCodepoint();
a.AdvanceCursor();
a.TableStateReset();
a.InputLoopEpilogue();
a.MatcherReturnResultList();
a.MethodEpilogue();
where a in this case is a especial expando object (dynamic) I built that resolves to template generation calls that are selected based on your target (like SQL or C#)
Sorry for all the code, it's just hard to explain without it.
I've basically imposed a structure over the flow the code so that it renders the same regardless of target because I was failing tests doing one target per template.
Unfortunately, this method yields dozens of templates per target, but at least my code is consistent.
I had to hack the crap out of my csppg tool to even make this work, but now it's pretty powerful.
I can do this:
<%@param name="docTemplate" type="string"%>
<%@param name="@private" type="bool"%>
<%@param name="returnTemplate" type="string"%>
<%@param name="methodName" type="string"%>
<%@param name="parametersTemplate" type="string"%>
To add parameters to my generator routines. I use this in MethodPrologue and TableMove above.
It's crazy code, folks. Just a zoo. But it works. I wish I had a better way to do this. It's a chore.
Real programmers use butterflies
modified 4-Nov-21 19:20pm.
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If you are a developer then I'm a scammer. We can't be in the same profession, I'm guilty.
Do people start to do the kind of stuff you write about out of experience or there is some kind of oil that one has to smear on their fore head every morning.😑
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I keep chickens, so that I have a supply of them to wave over my code while chanting. It helps.
Real programmers use butterflies
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The proper incantations are important. 
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Chickens only help fix mysterious bugs. There's gotta be a better explanation. I think you've got a familiar who channels exotic code to you from the Other Side.
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP.
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TNCaver wrote: Chickens only help fix mysterious bugs
Sorry there dude/dudette, but that's rubber ducks[^], not chickens.
Software Zen: delete this;
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loathsome criminal spied transmission (10)
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loathsome
criminal CABLE (no idea why)
spied SPIED
transmission (anag)
DESPICABLE
I'm kinda hoping I'm way wrong ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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But the wrong derivation. 
Criminal is the anagram indicator, and transmission clues for cable.
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... to all those who celebrate it 
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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To you too. Hope I am not too late.
ed
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Thanks!
Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
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"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming “Wow! What a Ride!" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Sorry - I was busy fixing the kitchen after the small fire yesterday ... bloody new storage heaters ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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