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Gratz 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Looking at a few other recent posts it got me thinking about qualifications, degrees and such-like things.
Many decades ago I got a PhD in Computer Science and, at the time, I thought it was a good thing.
Now, when I look back at how useful it was to learn all that I realise that nearly everything I learned is obsolete and about as useful as knowing how a carburettor works in these days of fuel-injected engines.
A large part of it was learning the history of computing, Charles Babbage and his Difference Engine, Blaise Pascal and Herman Hollerith with punched cards, punched tape and other punchy things. I even learned about Jacquard looms for early machine automation. Compare and contrast tape drives (high capacity serial data access) and disc drives (lower capacity but random access) - notice the spelling of "disc drive". COBOL, FORTRAN, Pascal and other modern computer languages.
All good stuff at the time but completely irrelevant these days.
Back in 1977, my thesis (I can't even remember the title) was based on distributed computing with small home computers or remote terminals at least, all connected together via a universal network where one could write documents, do reports on things using a database or data files, send messages to other computer users, order on-line, even play games alone or with other networked players. I even wrote some games (in assembler and FORTRAN) to demonstrate how this could work.
Hah! Like any of that would really happen! 
For a few years I was a professor, teaching all this stuff to poor souls who though it was all new and exciting... then I got a proper job and the rest is history. You'll have to wait for my autobiography to hear about jet fighters  , MI5 , chasing bandits in the mountains behind Hong Kong  , and other boring, non-computer related stuff. Oh, the tales I could tell, once the Official Secrets Act period has expired! 
My son will shortly complete his second Masters degree and all he does is complain about how much money he owes on his student loan.
Anyway, finally to the question...
Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Forogar wrote: going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
I am working in an environment made of this kind of people with code wrote by people who knew nothing of information theory and system engineering.
If I could erase from existance each of those programmers, I would do it, regardless of consequences for me as I would have done Good for the society.
Would you trust a surgeon who never studied but learnt from someone who knew? Would you trust an apprentice surgeon operating on you?
GCS d-- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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Quote: Would you trust a surgeon who never studied but learnt from someone who knew? Would you trust an apprentice surgeon operating on you?
Actually, surgeons (not doctors) learn their specialized craft mostly from, and as apprentices to, older, more experienced surgeons. Obviously, they have to be doctors first (this is the minimal but focused education I was referring to  ).
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Forogar wrote: this is the minimal but focused education I was referring to
Actually, a physician I use admitted that it would be just as useful as medical school to just work with a practicing physician for some years - almost everything ends up being experienced-based. They take their best guess - and are occasionally correct. It's almost completely experiential. The real medical breakthroughs are done by scientists, not MDs.
For REAL sciences, chemistry and physics, for example, there's a great deal of background material that is too abstract to learn by watching. Nonetheless, for earning a doctorate, one has to actually do the stuff - because the only way to learn how to do research is . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . to do it.
So - going back to coding - a large number of the best coders (take a poll, here) are self-taught. The big advantage they have is they love it and are driven (endorphins?). Just go to Q&A and see what computer science courses are bringing you!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Quote: Just go to Q&A and see what computer science courses are bringing you!
That's what's worrying me!
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Just go to Q&A and see what computer science courses are bringing you
That is a very unfair argument! Q&A hosts mostly the idjits who are too lazy to do the basic research required. The minimal number of good questions are from the potentially competent coders!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Well - we've had work done by (youngish) contractors (outsourced). I'll be generous and call it shyte. The good-to-great coders are going to be inspired. Self-taught, even if in the CS courses, because they just can't help themselves.
Taking the course - with the idea of it being a lucrative vocation "with a future" - is only producing a bunch of drones who actually could be replace by software that rights software.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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When Kimmy (the one with the bad hairdo) or some other troll detonates some nukes in earth orbit, or the sun decides to have a huge coronal mass ejection , all 'obsolete' knowledge will quickly come back into highest demand.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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All hail the mighty abacus
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And all you will hear is:
"How do you get WiFi on this thing?"
"Where's facebook?"
"When I swipe left, nothing happens."
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Nah, swiping left still works...that's how you move the beads
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There would be nothing to swipe since the phones were all dead.
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We would not fall back that far, but even ending up at the level of the early 20th century would be devastating. We will be in even bigger trouble once nobody is left who knows how to build something manually without any computer assistance. In any case we often would have to make do with knowledge that has survived in books, no matter how old.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Soroban makes more sense in the base 10 system.
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You have to start somewhere and besides you can't hardly get a programming job without a degree but. Not sure I'd go for the higher degree in CS but might in EE?
I may not be that good looking, or athletic, or funny, or talented, or smart
I forgot where I was going with this but I do know I love bacon!
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I always say the same.
The best I learned in college was / is how to learn on myself.
What I learned was clear for me it was only to pass the exam in 95% of the times. And I count me as lucky, because I can say that 5% of what they showed me is still useful for me.
Nowadays... they are giving data to the students, but they are not educating / teaching them how to use their brains in most of the cases.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Quote: The best I learned in college was / is how to learn on myself.
Exactly same experience here!
It does not solve my Problem, but it answers my question
modified 19-Jan-21 21:04pm.
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A CS degree, is 100% not necessary to be a successful and talented software engineer, and hasn't been for years.
I find the degree to be as useful as a 5-inch bolt in the skull.
Oh, and by the way, doctors these days don't drill holes in the skull cap to release evil spirits...at least I hope not. My point - keep up with the times, or get a new job.
modified 22-Oct-18 12:03pm.
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Forogar wrote: A large part of it was learning the history of computing
 You cannot understand where you are going until you understand where you have been.
To answer your question, it depends on what degree it is and where your degree is coming from. For example, having a degree in Computer Science from MIT, CalTech, or Stanford is an order of magnitude better than one from your local college or university. There are several elite schools in each field. Also, degrees in most STEM tracks have a much better chance of landing a job in your field upon graduation.
To sum up, the harder it is to get the degree the better the degree is. If one is not willing to pursue a hard degree, they would be better off jumping straight into the workforce.
IMHO, nobody with a Gender Studies degree is going to get a high-paying job......ever.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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Foothill wrote: To sum up, the harder it is to get the degree the better the degree is.
Personally I'd say a university degree might help someone get a higher-paying job quicker, but ultimately how long does it take for that extra money to cover the cost of getting that degree in the first place?
Regardless of the degree, if you're any good, eventually you will make good money.
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I know that talent throws all assumptions out the window  . I read an article some years back about college degree return on investment. It put degrees from MIT and CalTech at the top. The school's are the two costliest to attend but they also provide a much higher starting pay.
This is all generally speaking that is. Statistics are one thing, reality can be different for individuals.
I wish I could still find that article.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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