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Forogar wrote: Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time
Yes! I had the opportunity to work with youngsters (20-25 years younger than me, and I'm from 1972), who had only a bunch of courses...
Even they are the best quality, they lack the solid foundation that a good degree gives you. And that lack of foundation makes the bad dengourous and the good frustrated (first hand experience wit them)...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
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I've worked with folks who had 15-20 years experience, yet lacked a basic understanding of how a database works, nor understood why coding for efficient execution matters when you have 100,000 concurrent users.
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Good post! IMHO a PhD is for people whose career path is academia and may actually hurt an applicant whose career path is only the public sector. A problem I have found in my career is that having more education and experience than management can create a rough relationship, because management does not want someone that can do their job or is superior to them. An internship, BS, and a few certs should be enough to get in the door for a programming career. And then if you want the MS or more, let the employer pay for it. I would think that getting in the door early is better than spending many years and monies on academia, but a proper cost benefit analysis on career path and ambitions should be considered before making judgements and decisions.
If I were younger and still climbing the corporate ladder, I'd still recommend a MS. My employer paid for around half of it and my half paid for itself very quickly. The problem solving skills I obtained has helped out in my life and should continue throughout.
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I would say it depends on what you want to do with your working life. If only making money is your goal, getting a high level degrees may not worth it. I would recommend at least bachelor's degree.
For 30+ years, I've worked with developers with at least completed a Data Structure course and basic Database Design Principle(dev-A) and developers whom are self tough (dev-B). Provided that both groups are actively practicing their skills.
When developing Line of Business (LOB) application where the tools and requirements are well defined, either group can deliver successfully. It is only when the goal is gray and the tools is not readily available that requirements is not clear where some R&D is needed, then the group dev-A really can come through (in fact the higher the education, the better).
With a degree without practicing is worst that self tough when comes to coding. At least the self tough knows how to code. I have a brother who had a master degree in Software Engineering but can't write a simple hello world program.
If you ever plan to work for government in any research facility, a degree is a must have, the higher the more value it is.
modified 22-Oct-18 13:39pm.
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I agree with all your points and have experienced almost the same scenarios.
FYI: Just to help out your otherwise excellent English, I assume that by "self tough" you meant "self-taught".
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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In my humble opinion, the degree is a certification that you know the basics and it gets your foot in the door.
The real learning starts when you get into a shop and start working with people who have been doing it for years. This is where you learn how the development work is really done and the processes used, akin to an apprenticeship.
I admit, I'm an entirely self-taught developer with no degree.
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Forogar wrote: Do you think getting a degree these days is worth the time, effort and money
No.
Forogar wrote: or should we consider going back to the tried and trusted apprentice system (basically interns starting with minimal but focused, initial education)?
Yes.
And that goes for just about every career choice. I'm still debating whether it's a good thing for quacks doctors to have degrees.
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Forogar wrote: Useless or just Obsolete?
I'd like to think I'm both! 
I'm not sure about Masters or PhDs but good old BS degrees in Computer Science are well worth the time, money and effort. Is it perfect? No. Does it weed out all the idiots? No.
But before you throw out the baby with the bath water think of all the times your idiot neighbor said "Little Johnny is really good with computers*, he wants to get a job writing computer games!"
*Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: *Turns out he knows how to connect the XBox to the TV.
A skill I highly doubt you have.
Michael Martin
Australia
"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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That's what grandkids are for...
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: That's what grandkids are for...
I'm not there yet, so I get the kids to do that stuff.
Michael Martin
Australia
"I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible."
- Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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Michael Martin wrote: A skill I highly doubt you have.
 Pretty sure I could figure it out if I actually wanted to play XBox. 
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I think a common problem people have when considering college is the idea that college is there to teach you a skill.
It's not. College teaches to you learn.
You might acquire some entry-level skill set related to some career path, but, as you pointed out, as soon as the ink on the diploma is dry the skills you learned are out of date. Successful people come out of college with the skills to do research, collate that data into useful information, communicate that to others, and then use it to solve problems.
From a computer science perspective, you might acquire the ability to code in any number of languages, and to leverage a host of tools to do your job, but HOW you learn that how successful you are at acquiring that knowledge is a direct product of learning to learn.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind.
Ya can't fix stupid.
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Kevin Marois wrote: College teaches to you learn.
You'd think it should. I've seen too many who have degrees and would starve to death trying to teach themselves to use a can opener.
Some people treat the experience like it's the end-all, be-all of knowledge.
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College sure doesn't teach common sense.
If it's not broken, fix it until it is.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind.
Ya can't fix stupid.
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Kevin Marois wrote: College teaches to you learn.
Fascinating how things are different around different parts of the world... We learned to learn in the elementary/primary school (up to 14), since then it is real knowledge...
Granted - you have no real-life experience after college, but you should have a lot of knowledge to help to do things in real environment...
If the college is any decent, you not learning things from zero with your first job, but learning how to implement theory in real-life situations - and that called experience...
An other aspect of good college is that you understand how knowledge is temporary and changing and you will pursue it even after 50 years you left...
There are some, who fit the self-building process, but they are few (and they are good because they build themselves bottom-up). Most who has no a solid base are rarely become any good...
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge". Stephen Hawking, 1942- 2018
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In the USA, unfortunately, the education system really is a fancy baby-sitting service until high school. At high school some basic, relatively useless, skills are taught. True comprehension of material is really only taught in colleges. One of the best descriptions I have heard is that a two-year degree provides enough knowledge to use software tools, four years allows you to understand the tools, and six years will provide you the skills to create the tools.
Is it possible to learn to use a tool in less than two years? Certainly; there are tons of "learn in a week" sessions and such. "Bootcamps" exist to teach intense training of how to code, and will allow the graduate to do so. If nothing unexpected goes wrong. Experience, with some guidance, is what builds the ability to fix a problem. College is basically an institutionalized apprenticeship.
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: We learned to learn in the elementary/primary school (up to 14), since then it is real knowledge...
Primary school was way too easy for me, and it made me lazy  I got up to college almost without efford / learning. That's why I had to learn how to learn there.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I read the subject line and wondered why someone would post about me in the lounge.
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Knowledge gets outdated...the syllabus should be updated with time...if people stopped getting degrees and doing research America would not be in this unique position it was in the world arena .Considering the way its going for profit only and screwing its own country men with job losses and student loans and debt... well its up to trump to make America great again and save the world from another disaster.
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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I don't think the knowledge I gained in my degree course back in 1988 was fantastically useful however there'e the degree and there's going to university and the two are not always separate.
I would say that going to university can be useful - in my case my third year was spent working as a COBOL programmer so it was my first real job and I got a sense of what I didn't want to do.
I think if I had not gone to university I would not have gained to confidence to take on perhaps more demanding job roles.
On the specific topic of degrees - I think if one wants to become a developer it's probably better to spend the money educating yourself for three years as well as participating in online communities and writing and publishing software. I don't think degrees necessarily prepare people for the work environment.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Getting a degree is worth it for 2 reasons.
1. You learn to learn, that alone is a huge boon.
2. Stuff like how a linked list or a B+-tree works internally never gets old. Those theoretical concepts are still very much relevant today. You should either refrain from learning too-particular things (that was my prof's aporach) or distill the essense out of particular knowledge to apply it to other things running on the same principles. Example: While we can agree that a modern CPU is orders of magnitude more complex, than the venerable 8080, the basic concepts are still the same.
I personally am a fan of learning actually (at that time) useful things as learning theory without any grounding in reality isn't the way my brain works, but distill the essense to apply it to new fields. And let's be real, truly new fields are few far and between. The most progress computer science has been having for half a century is old wine in new (way fancier and bigger) bottles.
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Kirill Illenseer wrote: Getting a degree is worth it for 2 reasons.
1. You learn to learn, that alone is a huge boon.
2. Stuff like how a linked list or a B+-tree works internally never gets old.
Spot on! Lack of knowledge of how and why things work is a detriment in any field.
As others have mentioned, it matters which degree one gets. I work in private industry and government as a contractor and later FTE -- have an AAS in CS and BS in CS/Mathmetics. The "learning how to learn" and general background have benefited me throughout my career.
The things I did as recently as 10 years ago have no direct relevance to my current job. Everything changes, often too rapidly, so we keep on learning and building upon what we already know.
A PhD would have done nothing for me. I sort of regret not getting a MS, but focused on learning new technologies and getting relevant certifications. My career might have been different with a MS, but I can't say that it would be better -- just different.
Personally, certifications have done absolutely nothing in terms of making me better at anything -- BUT -- as others have mentioned, it's a checkbox. Ya got the right certs, ya get picked for interviews.
Please note that certifications made me REALLY good at successfully taking tests.
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The classical way of learning a craft was to become an apprentice, after a few years passing a practical test to be entitled a Journeyman, and maybe some years later demonstrating that you can manage a complete work task where you have do demonstrate a large number of skills, to become a Master.
In modern Norwegian education, that is still the way to become a craftsman, but the practical training is now interspersed with classroom lessons where you learn not only what to do, but why to do it. Theory with a very practical orientation. And, knowing both what to do and why is a very good combination. Those who have done all of their learning in a classroom may know the "why"s better, but may be clueless about the "what".
Lately, the tradidional classroom teaching of computer science has, here in Norway, been supplemented with a program similar to the old crafts learning: You are hired at a software house as an apprentice, working with a skilled programmer, but spending a few hours every week taking classes at a local college to learn the necessary "why"s. After a few years, you may go through a public exam to become a "bachelor" - the old "journeyman" term is not used any more, but that's just another name for the same thing. This kind of education is so new that I am not sure if anyone has gone further to become a Master though practical work (supplemented by practical theory).
I am very much in favor of this educational system. We may need purely theoretical education as well, but as a supplement to that (and a major one!), I think it is very valuable.
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your ? is a Degree worth it or should we use an Apprentice system.
My answer is YES.
Degrees can be worth it. But keep in mind someone with a two year degree at a cheap community college and then the following 2-3 years at a cheaper 4 year school will earn as much as a person with a degree from an expensive 4(5 probably) year school.
Also, a person with a 2 year degree who then goes and works in the industry for 3 years will be making as much if not more than the person with the 4 year degree right out of school. and probably be more productive at that time. In 3-6 months it(production) won't matter one whit.
I also know of a person who did a code camp and got a job and is doing fairly well for themselves.
But, there are foundational things that can only be learned by taking the time to study them. These are important people.
So Yes. We should depending upon the person. My three children. one I would recommend a code camp too. She would be a great programmer. The other I would only recommend a 4 year degree. She is awesome and would be a great business analyst in the long run. My youngest. a 2 year degree and get to work boy. HE would be an amazing DBA. Alas. They have their own ideas. But that is how they would work best. The best solution fits the person it is aimed at.
To err is human to really mess up you need a computer
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