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Also, if you look at the class names. They're different. The demo is recreating the same layout in both version 3 and 4. In short, version 4 is more relaxed and forgiving than version 3 thanks to it using flexbox underneath the hood.
Jeremy Falcon
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Super cool, dude. Thanks. 
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No problemo.
Jeremy Falcon
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R. Giskard Reventlov wrote: Bootstrap is a breath of fresh air in web design
I'm baffled we need third party libraries to make it less hard (or "breath of fresh air" as you call it) to do anything to begin with!
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Sander Rossel wrote: I'm baffled we need third party libraries to make it less hard (or "breath of fresh air" as you call it) to do anything to begin with!
Ha! Anything that means I don't have to worry about design. Bootstrap gives me an easy to use framework to lay out pages that someone else can easily "fix" later. Sure, I could hand craft css but why on earth would I do that when my design skills are not my strong point.
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Yeah, thank goodness people never write useless stuff like Boost for C++. I mean wxWidgets and Qt are pointless too when I could do everything myself with cross-platform code. Come to think of it, Sass and Less just seem silly. 
I get what you're saying though since I'm a purist and all. And truth being known, I think Bootstrap can muddy up otherwise beautiful markup. But if there is a really good third party library out there it's not always bad to use it. Bootstrap may be overkill for tiny projects, but there was a lot of work that was put into it and it can be pretty nifty when done right, despite the 5 bazillion class names you have to use for it.
Jeremy Falcon
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I can't even build a decent website without Bootstrap.
And I can't build it with Bootstrap either.
Simply because HTML + CSS just doesn't work.
Setting a width? Nope, because this element sets it's own width.
You still want to set it? Well alright, but we're going to mess up everything else.
We're also going to render it slightly different on other browsers.
Do you remember WinForms where you could do this with a single click? It's going to take you two days and a complete rewrite of your page in HTML + CSS!
Wait, did you just add an extra div to your page? FEEL MY CSS WRATH! YOUR LAYOUT WILL BURRRRN! BUWHAHAHA!!!
I had a coworker who kept saying "oh, that's easy", and he was somewhat good at it (at least best of the team), but more often than not a simple alignment issue would still cost him an hour.
At least he got stuff to align, which is more than I ever achieved in that steaming pile of crap.
And calling CSS crap is insulting to crap.
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People tend to mock what they don't understand. Especially young programmers. The way the web works is more like WPF than WinForms when it comes to layout and there are tons of great reasons for it being that way too I won't bother to elaborate on.
CSS layout issues used to cause me an hour a pop too. But that was when I was new to CSS layouts. Just like anything else in life, experienced artisans who know what they're doing get things done quicker. The more and more I read about how it works the less I was confused. The more I used it the better I got. Just like with anything else in life.
Sounds like the real problem in your post is nobody having a clue what was going on but everyone pretending they did to save face. I hope this doesn't sound harsh or mean, but it's the truth. Tech people are so afraid so say they don't know something it's unreal.
Jeremy Falcon
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Guilty as charged, I'm not very skilled with CSS.
It's just that setting a width does not set a width, adding a div totally messes up your layout, and having to read an entire book and spend considerable time doing it just to learn how to layout a page does not seem like proper intuitive design to me.
I once needed a table with a fixed column, takes me about two button clicks in WinForms, seemed to be pretty much impossible using HTML/CSS unless I rewrote my entire page and even then it wasn't easy.
I ended up creating two tables and keeping them in-sync using JavaScript, because I just didn't get it to work in CSS, even with numerous examples from the web (they all messed up the rest of my layout).
I know WinForms doesn't scale and that it isn't multi-platform and that skins are pretty much impossible, but the gap between ease-of-use between web and WinForms is lightyears.
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Oh I feel ya. I know one of the main reasons all of the extra fluff started with web layout is we have zero control over the size of the browser. A lot of folks wanted to fake it at first back in the 90s with a fixed with container on the page but then you'd get huge margins on the page every time you got a larger display. This was usually the guys coming from the print world in magazines that got into web design and couldn't let go having pixel perfect control over the "paper". So yeah the barrier to entry is more of a PITA.
The funny part is, once you get used to the extra fluff, it's hard to go back to pixel coordinates... unless you're using canvas or making a game perhaps. If nothing else, there's always Flash. 
Jeremy Falcon
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Look at it like this. Imagine your web page was a grid with 12-columns in it. Those 12 columns always filled up the page no matter what. Basically Bootstrap allows you to either fill up or not fill up those 12 columns depending on resolution.
SFW Image: Clickety[^]
It'll snap things in and out as the size of the window changes depending on how many styles you pass it. So for instance, for the desktop you can have something only take up 6 columns and thus only show up on half the screen, but for mobile it'll use all 12 since the display is tiny and you need all the room you can get. We call that responsiveness because it makes us feel smart and sounds fancy. It's really not more complicated than that despite what some may have you believe.
Jeremy Falcon
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A great explanation ! thanks, Bill
«While I complain of being able to see only a shadow of the past, I may be insensitive to reality as it is now, since I'm not at a stage of development where I'm capable of seeing it.» Claude Levi-Strauss (Tristes Tropiques, 1955)
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Anyone seen it[^]? I watched it last night and I found it....strange, stressful, weird, crazy and an all round head-f***. Didn't watch any trailer or anything so wasn't expecting that...haven't stopped thinking about it all day.
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I tend to love anything by Aronofsky, the man's a genius. Eeeeever so slightly "samey" in the "PsychoOverload" approach he takes to telling a story, but he rarely fails to mess with your head...
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know.
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Mel Padden wrote: I tend to love anything by Aronofsky,
Think I've seen Noah and Black Swan, though wasn't really concentrating when watching the second - so didn't get it. I'm going to watch dream/requim one this weekend.
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Yeah I'll try that one. 
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I totally agree. The movie is supposed to be an analogy of the relationship between God, the earth, and humans. Jennifer Laurence's character represents mother earth, her husband represents God, and the neighbors represent the human race. When you put it in that perspective, it speaks volumes.
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others.
Same thing when you are stupid.
modified 19-Nov-21 21:01pm.
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Yeah I get that - now. And I'm glad I was to dumb to get it until the final scene, as the WTF aspect just increased to a crescendo and the labour chaos was amazing.
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The chaos was way too long (and damn near seizure inducing) for me. I kinda felt ripped off afterwards. I guess that type of film is just not my cup-o-tea.
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment
"Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst
"I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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jeron1 wrote: I guess that type of film is just not my cup-o-tea
It's RT/IMDB ratings are made up of almost entirely extreme scores. Either it was highly rated or extremely low rated, but hardly ever given a middle vote. My girlfriend thought it was sh*t...but as I pointed out I've never heard her make so many vocal noises (whilst watching a film).
jeron1 wrote: I kinda felt ripped off afterwards
Yeah, I didn't pay 
jeron1 wrote: and damn near seizure inducing
This is what I especially liked - I had watched Dunkirk earlier in the day and that was just mind-numbing boring.
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A poker buddy of mine saw it and had exactly the same response.
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Well worth checking out - but now you've been told (twice) what to expect, I feel it will just disappoint. I knew nothing, and didn't realise who the director was, so was just expecting a 'Jennifer Lawrence' type movie.
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The parcel service introduced a live tracking a few years ago where you see a street map with markers for your home and for the current position of the delivery car, along with the number of remaining stops before yours and an estimated time until delivery.
So far, it hasn't been accurate a single time, not even close. You would assume they monitor their prediction success rate and adjust it accordingly. Apparently not.
My parcel was announced by email to be delivered today between 1pm and 2pm. At 3pm I opened the live tracking and it said 19 stops remaining. At 3:15pm it said 25 stops remaining and at 3:30pm it said 29 stops remaining.  All the while the car was shown at exactly the same position it already was at at 3pm. Want to make a guess on their prediction algorithm?
If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't. — Lyall Watson
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Some of the newer Amazon Prime deliveries are pretty good - I had one last week that showed - in real time - where my package was (or at least the van it was on) with a "delivered in x minutes" which worked out almost spot on.
The following day, the only info they could give me was "it's on the van". 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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