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CDP1802 wrote: I would gladly go and flip burgers before ever working in such a place again
If I could get paid to flip burgers what I was paid as a software engineer, I would always pick the burger-flipping job. 
On the other hand, you have different fingers. - Steven Wright
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The line as it is means that a good developer cleans up instead of coding - I think that a good developer both codes and cleans up, both his own code (preferrably while writing it) and when allowable someone else's.
Working with people who don't add anyting except that pointing other people's mistakes is terrible.
BesidesCDP1802 wrote: Sometimes I think I have been cursed to forever clean up what some clueless (censored) left behind before continuing their sabotage elsewhere.
The same for me - I have to fight wiht cpps of 20klocs containing deprecated functions and stuff ranging from algorithm, utilities and hardware management, wrote by people who didn't indent the code and thought that short code means fast code - so many cycles are put on a single line without spaces between operators and operands, with lines of 120+ characters completely unreadable by any human, figure debugging them.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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den2k88 wrote: The same for me - I have to fight wiht cpps of 20klocs containing deprecated functions and stuff ranging from algorithm, utilities and hardware management, wrote by people who didn't indent the code and thought that short code means fast code - so many cycles are put on a single line without spaces between operators and operands, with lines of 120+ characters completely unreadable by any human, figure debugging them.
Then auto format the code, it can't get any worse.
Still, readability is the least of my concerns. What about such things as
- no structure or architecture
- standards of any kind are avoided like the plague
- resulting in mile long spaghetti functions that seem to do everything and nothing
- resulting in countless side effects and similar surprises
- resulting in countless situations where you can have feature A or perhaps feature B, but never both at once.
- all this without any technical documentation
- and of course no domain documentation.
If I have a choice, I would prefer coding something before wasting a single minute on such a steaming pile, but guess what: That's the only thing that they will not let you do.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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That too - but I can work on that, given time. Unreadable code though... I still have to find an autoformatting tool. And it has to be portable since we don't have network access on our machines.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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You forgot one. Multiple copies of the same bloody method with minor differences between each and almost every method is this way. I got put onto an existing project with this problem. No refactoring anywhere. If I have to make an immediate change and don't have time to refactor, I have to make the change in 3 or more places. There are 3 methods that have been copied 9 times each and are coded in such a way that refactoring is extremely difficult. 
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others.
Same thing when you are stupid.
modified 19-Nov-21 21:01pm.
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den2k88 wrote: The line as it is means that a good developer cleans up instead of coding - I think that a good developer both codes and cleans up,
Ya, I think you were taking the quote a little to literally. I don't know who said it but I took it as what you said here, that good developers clean up code but it does not mean they don't also write code.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Ya, I think you were taking the quote a little to literally.
A few hours later, I concur with your opinion 
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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Just like "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" is technically false in that even in the even exchange of eye-gouging one person would be left with a single eye due to the blind incompetence of eye-gouging from the other person left or simply a person with a single eye, so too does this saying lose meaning in the literal sense but gain in the figurative. The talented are left to clean up for the not since they are the only ones capable.
modified 7-Apr-17 4:35am.
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If it only was so simple. Often enough this mess has been carefully prepared over twenty years and there simply is no way back or forth without breaking something. That, plus plenty of obfuscation or downright misleading information let my think that this is not an accident. It's deliberate
All the years before, some other poor idiot had been sitting between a screaming customer and the same hand waving manager without any chance of getting out of this in a decent way. Letting exceptions or other errors slip under the rug and then pretending that everything is just fine makes the customer happy and is done quick enough to make the manager happy. No doubt the whole thing will come back next week, but who cares as long as the manager and the customer never really quite get what's really going on. Not nice, but pure self defense.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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I believe the competent are frequently tasked with fixing the errors of others. Who else would you ask? I'm currently in the race for a position which will require me to decouple a monolithic back-end into micro-services. Do I detest the people that came before me? Not at all. I revel in the chance to take the sketch a fellow developer has created and turn it into my own art. This speaks not to the impotence of the former developer but to my own ambition; not to their detraction but to my addition. Even the blindest of managers can see darkness (exceptions not withstanding).
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If those projects I have seen had been the work of a single person, then the code would have been a monument to mental illness. Over time so many different people came and went away that it simply shows how they had been left alone with the problem, found no solution and gave up after struggling some time. I don't detest them, but by now there would be only one way left: Throw the whole thing away and start all over again. Now guess who does not want to hear anything about that kind of ideas...
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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From the scribings of Mahatma Kote, no doubt.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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den2k88 wrote: nit-pick on formalities
If you think that's all that needs to be fixed with "bad code", you've never seen bad code.
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I did - I understand what you mean. But bad code != bad architecture, and that is not something you can "clean-up" because it will require rethinking of the entire substructure that needs to be fixed, and often this will throw in the need to rethink the surrounding substructures.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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Well, ok, lets call "bad architecture" bad code, at a larger scale. 
I still have some nightmares from a product I've worked on, was subsequently taken over by a newer guy for a few years, then he quit and it was handed back to me. Since that day I've disavowed ownership. 
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Let me, then, offer you an alternative quote:
"If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when will you find the time to do it again?"
Now, convolute that with your original quote, the hacks just make it work - they then hope to use someone elses time for the do-it-again part.
.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Aye, a good programmer IMHO is precisely one who takes the time and the effort to do it right the first time.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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Quote: Excuse me? Are you trying to say that good developers are the ones who don't write any code on their own and simply nit-pick on formalities of other people's code?
Formalities has such a nice ring to it. Will call the steaming piles that I occasionally waddle trough a formality from now on.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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den2k88 wrote: "Bad developers code, good developers clean up".
And of course the missing piece in this analysis is the code that I clean up ... that I wrote myself.
I'm retired. There's a nap for that...
- Harvey
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If we're going with trite statements;
"Bad developers code such that you have to clean up, good developers code so you don't have to."
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( please see soapbox to discuss politics behind this)
I have visions of trump walking around the deck of the ship these missiles were fired from, pointing at the empty, smoking, missile-launchers, saying "you're fired".
modified 6-Apr-17 22:08pm.
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You made Herself laugh!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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That sounds like Trump, but I would not have thought that the Governator[^] would let him use his jokes. And no bonus points for literally firing the terrorists at other terrorists.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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So says The New Whole Foods Encyclopedia.
Now, just think a bit about that subject line.
Folk remedy...
...jetlag...
Riiiight.
Marc
Latest Article - Merkle Trees
Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny
Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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