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I do believe unconscious "gender bias in tech" do exists but a Certification might not be the only way to fix the issue. A certificate will make someone or an organization look good from the outside just like an iceberg. There are many other directive control can be introduced, some of them mentioned by the CP members like company policy/value system, awareness training, continuous education, don’t be exclusive, be fair to every employees, etc...
I do agreed that the Certification was throw in merely as a distractor and a scheme to take advantage of the circumstances/ issue.
Bryian Tan
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Bryian Tan wrote: often or always experience
Isn't this a feeling? How can we use it a proper objective parameter?
Bryian Tan wrote: And 43% report that male colleagues are paid more without reason.
And the proof is? Without reason could again be a feeling or may be they are not aware of reasons.
At my workplace, this does not happen. There are policies that are followed when it comes to salaries and promotions. While the system is not perfect by any means it does reduce the amount of subjectivity in the process.
I am not saying that discrimination does not exist. There might be workplaces where there are not enough policies and adherence to it where people can get away with. In those places, IMO, it has nothing to do with sex but more to do with politicking.
P.S. I did not read the aritcle/news/? you linked to.
"It is easy to decipher extraterrestrial signals after deciphering Javascript and VB6 themselves.", ISanti[ ^]
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lw@zi wrote: P.S. I did not read the aritcle/news/? you linked to.
You missed nothing valuable there, I assure you.
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All of the female developers I know are paid more than me, despite me having more years of experience than them. What did I see is that next to no woman enrolled in Computer Science courses - usually there were 2-3 women out of 100 students.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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den2k88 wrote: What did I see is that next to no woman enrolled in Computer Science courses - usually there were 2-3 women out of 100 students.
I've spoken a few times with my better half about this.. she thinks computers (and especially programming) are boring, no interest in it whatsoever.
My gut feeling is that males and females are often drawn to different fields in industry. It's not a bias thing, just the way we work as humans.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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My fiancèe is an engineer like me, and she has always been bright - despite not owning a computer until her late teens (dirt-poor family) and attending to a professional high school for social service operators (no computer involved) she was perfectly capable of editing both BBCode and html on her blog (using public libraries internet access) in her early teens.
Nevertheless, she finds programming extremely boring even if for all purposes she'd probably hand me my sitting-body-part if she'd ever decide to put into it. and that's the same for most women I know, they find science and technology in particular boring and flat - they fail to see tha magic.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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Totally agree with you on this. Policy is important to clarify what an organization wants to do and how to do it, guide decisions and achieve rational/unbias outcomes. Some companies do thing without following policy, maybe there isn't one.
Bryian Tan
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Umm, the way to fix it would be acquire the crap "certification" they're selling?
It really is just a badly written advert for some dodgy certification that wouldn't be worth the paper it gets printed on.
And the whole advert is covered up conveniently behind the pretense of "bringing better prospects for women". Could it get any more disgusting? 
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What if 28% of men said that they experience "gender bias" on the job? Would you believe the industry is biased against men? I know I wouldn't care either way.
Also, this "discussion" is more suited for The Soapbox.
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The only gender bias I have experienced is the fact that most women choose to study/work in a different area.
The very few women I've met in this business has been very well paid, not because they're women, but because they were very competent.
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What a complete waste of words.
I love the way people talk about surveys without mentioning the sample size -- which makes the survey results absolutely useless, because it may only have been 23 women.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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It could be 12, we don't know the sample size 
Bryian Tan
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Of course it can be fixed, but just for good measure, I think that we should get a man to fix it, so that we know it's fixed properly once and for all... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Ok, in the next International Women's Day summit we will mentioned your name.
Bryian Tan
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In my company there is the unspoken rule, fixed by the female CEO (wife of Mr President himself), that women will no longer be hired permanently - only stages or timed apprenticeship. That because of the potential of maternity.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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I took 'paternity leave' while working at my former company.
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You did f*ing right, except that it lasts way less than the full extension of maternity leave and it grants fewer perks later.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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I took half the parent leave for my kids, but I had to fight for it.
Not with my company, but with my wife. It's really hard, for many women it seems, to give over responsibility at halftime. 
I've talked with quite a few guys having a similar experience.
<edit>was supposed to be a reply to Carlos post above<7edit>
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Yes but without the money flowing from the US, the Dolce Vita and the Rock 'n roll.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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den2k88 wrote: That because of the potential of maternity.
I always had the same rule for the same reasons. Avoiding marriage like the plague has always worked well for me, but what exactly is a timed apprenticeship? Those are the ones that want money, right?
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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It is a contract that expires afer 3 years, dirung which you start from a low pay and slowly rise (the amounts are written in the contract) and then you may be or may be not hired - and you have less contributions to the statal pension plan, nor access to any form of credit since you're not hired permanently.
For women avoiding marriage is not sufficient - either they ar 50+ years old (but then they dont't hire them anyway) or maternity is still a possible issue. Maternity rights are pretty harsh on the employers - basically a woman can take up to an year and a half of paid leave and expect to return working in the same position she left, that leaves great problems because you have to find a substitute, train him/her (so you're way low on productivity) only to either relocate him/her or cease his/her contract when the old employeee returns. And then there is a long period of extended paid leaves to care for the child.
Still, it's not fair - given that single fathers have way less rights while nonetheless having to foster a child.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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Life will never be fair, in both directions. I have heard that 98% of all fatal job accidents here are men. I always wanted to know if the ladies would want a fair share of those accidents as well.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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Aye, in my country they're introducing "pink quotas", a lgally required minimum pecentage of female workers. But not for the heavy jobs, only directive/office ones. Why don't they do that for electricians, masons, builders, truck drivers, heavy labour... also, try applying as a man as clerk for fashion/clothing shops. Or asking for part-time as a man. You get laughed in your face and sent back home.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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den2k88 wrote: also, try applying as a man as clerk for fashion/clothing shops
If I did that, I would deseve getting laughed in the face. I have no sense for that stuff at all. Clothing must be comfortable, warm or light enough (depending on the climate) and must have many pockets.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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