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Mark_Wallace wrote: Look what happened to the female techs who dared to show up in the Lounge.
What happened?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Over the years there have been a number of intelligent, well-liked female CP members in the Lounge. They all got tired of the puerile adolescent nonsense that breaks out every so often here.
Software Zen: delete this;
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That sounds like a gender bias against men, who tend to have puerile adolescent moments as a condition of their hormonal balance.
I would also like to point out, though, that women have the same capacity for adolescent outbursts as men.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Benjamin Disraeli
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Nathan Minier wrote: men, who tend to have puerile adolescent moments as a condition of their hormonal balance
What might be appropriate behavior in the locker room isn't appropriate in a public forum. Knowing the difference is something men learn as they become an adult. Those who don't are merely boys in a physically mature body.
Nathan Minier wrote: women have the same capacity for adolescent outbursts as men
My statement also applies to women.
Software Zen: delete this;
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Well if comments fall into a category that is objectively depraved, there are mechanisms in place to moderate the forum. Or do you think women aren't capable of using those...
I acknowledge that last line was a total troll move. 
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Benjamin Disraeli
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Gary Wheeler wrote: tired of the puerile adolescent nonsense
That makes sense. I wonder if I'm female then too. 
Mark had said something happened to them. I guess what he meant is that they were around immature males.
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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I do believe unconscious "gender bias in tech" do exists but a Certification might not be the only way to fix the issue. A certificate will make someone or an organization look good from the outside just like an iceberg. There are many other directive control can be introduced, some of them mentioned by the CP members like company policy/value system, awareness training, continuous education, don’t be exclusive, be fair to every employees, etc...
I do agreed that the Certification was throw in merely as a distractor and a scheme to take advantage of the circumstances/ issue.
Bryian Tan
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Bryian Tan wrote: often or always experience
Isn't this a feeling? How can we use it a proper objective parameter?
Bryian Tan wrote: And 43% report that male colleagues are paid more without reason.
And the proof is? Without reason could again be a feeling or may be they are not aware of reasons.
At my workplace, this does not happen. There are policies that are followed when it comes to salaries and promotions. While the system is not perfect by any means it does reduce the amount of subjectivity in the process.
I am not saying that discrimination does not exist. There might be workplaces where there are not enough policies and adherence to it where people can get away with. In those places, IMO, it has nothing to do with sex but more to do with politicking.
P.S. I did not read the aritcle/news/? you linked to.
"It is easy to decipher extraterrestrial signals after deciphering Javascript and VB6 themselves.", ISanti[ ^]
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lw@zi wrote: P.S. I did not read the aritcle/news/? you linked to.
You missed nothing valuable there, I assure you.
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All of the female developers I know are paid more than me, despite me having more years of experience than them. What did I see is that next to no woman enrolled in Computer Science courses - usually there were 2-3 women out of 100 students.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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den2k88 wrote: What did I see is that next to no woman enrolled in Computer Science courses - usually there were 2-3 women out of 100 students.
I've spoken a few times with my better half about this.. she thinks computers (and especially programming) are boring, no interest in it whatsoever.
My gut feeling is that males and females are often drawn to different fields in industry. It's not a bias thing, just the way we work as humans.
Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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My fiancèe is an engineer like me, and she has always been bright - despite not owning a computer until her late teens (dirt-poor family) and attending to a professional high school for social service operators (no computer involved) she was perfectly capable of editing both BBCode and html on her blog (using public libraries internet access) in her early teens.
Nevertheless, she finds programming extremely boring even if for all purposes she'd probably hand me my sitting-body-part if she'd ever decide to put into it. and that's the same for most women I know, they find science and technology in particular boring and flat - they fail to see tha magic.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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Totally agree with you on this. Policy is important to clarify what an organization wants to do and how to do it, guide decisions and achieve rational/unbias outcomes. Some companies do thing without following policy, maybe there isn't one.
Bryian Tan
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Umm, the way to fix it would be acquire the crap "certification" they're selling?
It really is just a badly written advert for some dodgy certification that wouldn't be worth the paper it gets printed on.
And the whole advert is covered up conveniently behind the pretense of "bringing better prospects for women". Could it get any more disgusting? 
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What if 28% of men said that they experience "gender bias" on the job? Would you believe the industry is biased against men? I know I wouldn't care either way.
Also, this "discussion" is more suited for The Soapbox.
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The only gender bias I have experienced is the fact that most women choose to study/work in a different area.
The very few women I've met in this business has been very well paid, not because they're women, but because they were very competent.
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What a complete waste of words.
I love the way people talk about surveys without mentioning the sample size -- which makes the survey results absolutely useless, because it may only have been 23 women.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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It could be 12, we don't know the sample size 
Bryian Tan
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Of course it can be fixed, but just for good measure, I think that we should get a man to fix it, so that we know it's fixed properly once and for all... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Ok, in the next International Women's Day summit we will mentioned your name.
Bryian Tan
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In my company there is the unspoken rule, fixed by the female CEO (wife of Mr President himself), that women will no longer be hired permanently - only stages or timed apprenticeship. That because of the potential of maternity.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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I took 'paternity leave' while working at my former company.
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You did f*ing right, except that it lasts way less than the full extension of maternity leave and it grants fewer perks later.
* CALL APOGEE, SAY AARDWOLF
* GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
* Never pay more than 20 bucks for a computer game.
* I'm a puny punmaker.
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I took half the parent leave for my kids, but I had to fight for it.
Not with my company, but with my wife. It's really hard, for many women it seems, to give over responsibility at halftime. 
I've talked with quite a few guys having a similar experience.
<edit>was supposed to be a reply to Carlos post above<7edit>
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