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Actually, that's a really great personality description of most devs, I hope.
I agree 100%.
And you've raised an important point about some testers who have a chip on their shoulder and just bug report on the most ridiculous details. Great stuff.
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Sereiously, I've seen VERY few unit tests where I didn't think: There's no way this is EVER going to fail!
And then I wonder: Why did you (not me, but the programmer who wrote it) waste your time writing the test (and running it over and over again)? 
And why do managers insist that you write tests for every tiny detail that can't possibly go wrong?
I'm not against unit testing as such, but I think it's WAY overrated.
To be fair, I HAVE seen tests that were actually were nice to have (and written one or two myself) - but mostly waste of time in my opinion! 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
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Johnny J. wrote: but mostly waste of time in my opinion!
If your unit tests are a waste of time then you are doing it wrong. There's no point in writing unit tests unless they add to the quality of the code and give confidence that the software works as expected.
The book you need to read is this one. [^]. It's the only book on the subject I recommend. You should quickly see improvements in your unit testing strategy.
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare
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Osherove's book is a great one.
This new one I mentioned is quite good too because it takes a broader view and doesn't just focus on Unit Tests but is attempting to change the mindset of developers to understand they need to :
build quality in.
Also, Unit Tests / TDD can feel redundant...
...as soon as you write them, you alter the code to pass those tests but then you don't need the tests to run any longer because you know you altered the code to pass the tests.
But, they are helpful because,
1. they help you think about quality
2. they help with regression testing
modified 5-Jan-17 14:44pm.
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I find unit tests helpful when initially developing some new functionality, as they allow me to focus on the new functionality and getting that working in isolation. Then I can look at integrating the new functionality when I know it works. And definitely agree with your point about regression testing. I think this is possibly the single most powerful reason to use them. If I make a change to the code, I want to be sure I have changed all the affected areas, and breaking unit tests gives me exactly that.
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare
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I completely agree with the comment about regression testing.
You have to at least run the code to make sure it works right? Why not frame that test in a way that can be run again? If you have a decent framework set up and are familiar with how to use it then it won't take much longer anyway.
Then sometime down the road you have to modify it (internal enhancement for performance or change in functionality) and it gives you so much more confidence to make the change knowing that you had good coverage tests from before.
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And who tests the unit test
We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.
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Do you proofread your own prosa? Or do you review your own bookkeeping?
Testing your own stuff is not such a great idea. You tend to build your misconceptions into the tests and sometimes you try to prove how good you are a little too hard. And these are just some unintentional reason why this can go all wrong.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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I've worked in numerous roles in IT so this method works for me. I'm destructive to software.
I started out in support at a medium sized place with a smaller software group (25 people). The dev sat a row over. I asked him once, "Hey, this customer makes a great point. Why does this do that?"
GreyBeard: Shut up!
I then moved into QA.
Once the devs were having a design session that leaked into the hallways.
Another support guy -- who really used the software to help users -- said, "Hey, I think you're forgetting about X."
GrayBeard Devs: Shut up! We will cross the bridge when we get to it. You are wrong about that design element.
Support Guy: Wait guys. Seriously. Think about--
GrayBeards: Shut it!
Support guy:
6 months later after new software release with this new design...
Support guy: <hangs up phone> Remember that design element I mentioned? Well, the customer just fell into that hole.
Graybeards: Shut! Up!
Support Guy: I'll enter it as a bug in the system. 
Later in my QA career, devs would say, "hey, monkey, go test and we'll give you a banana..."
I entered a 10,000 character URL and hit post. It crashed Oracle instance!! Hahaha...
(no, you cannot do that now, but you could in IE 2.x,3.x)
Enter steps into bug tracker and submit. Heh, heh, heh. There's your treat, dev.
Dev: What do you want me to do with that bug you entered.
me: I don't care. It kills the Oracle instance and your app dies so it doesn't mean anything to me. Ignore it if you like. If you feel confident to go to prod with that.
Dev: <sulks off into another direction. >
For the win!!
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raddevus wrote: Dev: What do you want me to do with that bug you entered.
I would have start a fire after that question.
I do not fear of failure. I fear of giving up out of frustration.
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These types are dangerous. Because of them crashing rockets and die people 
Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany
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Yeah, it's quite terrible that people really do work like that.
Too bad they can't treat their dev like a craft.
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A quote from a former colleague:
"Stop finding bugs, that's the clients (= user) job"
And yes she was serious, and no that wasn't even my worst experience dealing with her.
Tom
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Yeah, it's a sickness.
A person like that really shouldn't be a dev...well, really isn't a dev.
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You should not have ask her out.
I do not fear of failure. I fear of giving up out of frustration.
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I've worked with people like that, but I've also worked with people who were specifically hired as testers.
What I've seen is that the arrogant kind of dev you're talking about (and they exist just about everywhere) tends to be a lot more careful -- and involved! -- when they know that there is someone who will be confirming that everything works OK.
I know that the next comment my annoy some people here, but this is somewhere where Agile works exceedingly well. The morning stand-up ritual builds really good connections between devs and testers.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I can actually see what you mean in the case of (true) Agile, because in that case the hand-off from dev to QA should be so tight that it is as if the hand-off were simply the one person who played the role as dev would now put on her QA hat and do the tests. In that case you would be right and that is really how it should work and that is again directly tied to ownership.
But, i assure you, long ago when that dev said that to me, it was entirely because testing was beneath him. Great conversation here though.
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We're set up here now with SonarQube hooked into the CI system so if test coverage on new code is below 80% the change is automatically rejected (and it does reject changes).
We still get people saying "I don't understand why I need to test", which I hear as "I don't understand why I need to write higher quality code and catch issues earlier when they can be fixed more rapidly and where it's cheaper to do so".
I find that if you can set up a system to show unit tests being run, coverage information and actions being taken when issues are found then there tends to be more corporate buy-in. We had a senior manager here who wanted screens up so he could see the information each time he walked by the different teams.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
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I must be so freakin' old. It would never occur to me to give someone something attributable to me without making sure it works.
I've wasted so much time. If there's a problem then someone would probably tell me if it were really important. So much time wasted.
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: It would never occur to me to give someone something attributable to me without making sure it works.
That's exactly how I feel about it. It was literally like listening to a crazy person when he said he hadn't even shot one element of data through the thing. Crazy!
And, you're not old, you have a fine attention to The Craft of Software Development.
(Also, I'm old too.) 
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If for nothing else, I find unit tests the quickest way to debug new features and check they actually work. Far quicker than manually clicking through UI controls until you get to your new feature / bug fix.
Although I have worked with devs who pass on to QA without even running through the code themselves . .
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Absolutely! Great comment.
Griping about unit tests and/or just not doing them is akin to griping about Source Control.
If you don't understand how much value Source Control brings as a developer and you only see it as overhead, then you probably don't really understand a lot about real dev. Source Control is annoying at times, but it saves so much work. Same thing for unit tests.
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I've only been in the trade for 4 years so perhaps that is before my time. I can't even imagine working without source control. That includes personal projects, but particularly for collaboration.
What is the alternative to source control when working as a team? Emailing code around? Store on network drive? Word of mouth? Passenger pigeon? Reminds me of the time I received a printed XML in the post..
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Sometimes it's better that the original developer doesn't write the (automated) tests.
Sometimes all that means is that the developers misconception of the requirements gets written twice.
OTOH, a test script that runs through all the expected interactions is useful, and yes, the basic test data for those interactions.
That said, most place I've worked don't have dedicated testers - just user acceptance testers.
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AndrewDavie wrote: just user acceptance testers.
That's a good way to look at this and it sparked a thought in me.
User Acceptance testers can decide whether the software meets the user requirements and bascially fulfills the outward contract. So the testing could determine that the software is 100% correct.
However, without unit tests the design underneath could be so terrible that as soon as the customer wants to add an "easy change" the design may be so brittle that everything falls apart. So unit tests and other tests can/may indicate where the design is broken or bad and those kinds of tests would never be found by acceptance testers.
Good comment. Made me think.
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