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It helps a lot to have a good science type degree, especially in some kind of engineering, physics, or chemistry. I got my chemistry degree and worked 13 years in the lab, but always programmed on my own as a hobby. Got into programming professionally when the job market bottomed out for chemists in the 90's. All of the companies that I interviewed for had the mindset of "Oh, you have a chemistry degree. You must be smart enough to do this job." I still had to code in the interviews, but much better than not having a degree at all.
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others.
Same thing when you are stupid.
modified 19-Nov-21 21:01pm.
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Yes, seriously. Also not an incident, and prolly payed a lot to learn "all that". If degrees were so reliable then we wouldn't need a coding-challenge during an interview.
So if I can get a degree I'll politely decline again.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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I feel the OP feelings are correct.
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I have only three times hired developers straight from university, and all three times I bitterly regretted it.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I studied computer science but it was so fast paced it was hard to learn ins and outs of any programming languages being taught. I had to do 8 subjects per semester and there were lot of non programming subjects from civil engineering , electrical engineering , mathematics etc. I had to go through 4 written exams in 6 month semester and there is no break between each subject exam.
When I finished my degree I hardly had any experience that I can use in real world. I had to teach myself most of what I know. University helped me understand the fact that there is no option to hard work and there is always solution you just have to think like an engineer.
Zen and the art of software maintenance : rm -rf *
Maths is like love : a simple idea but it can get complicated.
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Maybe you wasted your time then.
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Hey, in my CS class at the university, the professor was proud of teaching timeless knowledge instead of fads. His words. At the end, we've spent 4 pages writing an algorithm for a fictional register machine which I've written as half a page real assembly. That dude was really stuck in the idea that it's impossible to transfer assembly knowledge from one architecture to another so we needed to learn the most theoretical machine possible because only theoretical knowledge is transferable.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: -knowledge on how to make variables
-knows how to make different loops
I was ~12 years old and using my brothers C64 whenever he was not at home for some time to somehow discover what variables and loops are. When finally understanding those fundamentals, my mind was blown in front of the vastness of possibilities they offer. I am sure I muttered the words aloud at the time, with my helium-voice; "the possibilities are limitless!"
Rest of my life has been just a case of exploring the limitless possibilities of my childhood discovery. Learning of other things has been merely a byproduct.
In my life I've been trough few different levels of education in which there has been programming classes, in which the reoccurring phenomenon was "some" other students succeeding with good grades trough them without achieving/unlocking the mind-awe experience of "truly" understanding the possibilities offered by use of variables.
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Schools (at least good ones) don't teach how to work on a specific language.
Their job is to give you notions of what's out there and abilities you can apply on basically any language.
Richard MacCutchan wrote: My main programming language is Java, Here is an example of what im kind of trying to find out:
-knowledge on how to make variables
-understands OOP
-knows how to make different loops
If the problem is just translating to Java, it's just a matter of googling it.
Java is but a means to an end. If you don't have the ability/desire to create the algorithm, your probably better of searching for a new line of work.
I hate when people associate programming with a language (almost as much as I hate Java  )
Paulo Gomes
Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like measuring aircraft building progress by weight.
—Bill Gates
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May be he did a couple Excel WorkSheets to get graduated 
Patrice
“Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler.” Albert Einstein
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To the original post...
I'm so sorry to hear your dilemma, I've never gone to college or even taken a course on programming other than the SAMS "Learn Java in 21 days" book. I can highly recommend this book, from that base starting point I've gone on to learn C#, SQL, VB, js and many other tools.
Learning to program is basically learning to think logically, nothing more. Language and syntax are tools, but they do you no good unless you can break down a problem into logical steps. Once you know the steps you can find the syntax.
I will also say understand why you want to write programs, in my case my hobby is art and graphics (3D), but I wanted to do things that the applications available couldn't do, or wouldn't let me do. So I started writing my own programs, when I was finally able to do the things I wanted... I was hooked!
My career took a completely different path, I became a machinist, then tool maker, got into CAD, then 3D CAD, started designing machines and processes, then became a manufacturing engineer. Along the way, as I needed to solve problems or analyze data, and the available tools (software) wouldn't do what I needed, guess what.... I made my own.
I give you all of this because "why program" is a bigger question than how. Find a problem to solve, then figure it out.
"Figure it out" is a matter of patience and tenacity more than knowledge or skill.
Start small and simple then expand on that a little at a time.
I'll be happy to help explain variables, OOP, and loops, and anything else you may need if you decide you really want to learn programming, but you first have to answer the question of "Why program" for yourself.
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Wow…
6 months ago I couldn't even spell engineer now I are one.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist!
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Your spelling has not improved, it's injunear. 
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I sit corrected.
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist!
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You can lead a programmer through source code,
but you can't make them think!
I have seen this time and again. University Seniors who I failed, explaining to me that they ACED their C++ class last semester, how can they fail Java. So, I asked them some C++ related questions, they could NOT ANSWER one of them. I explained that he ACED a water downed C class, that used a C++ compiler! And if I taught that class, he would have had a chance in my class!
When I was graduating from Michigan State, I saw one of the worst programmers so proud to get his degree with a 2.0 GPA (boosted by non computer and non engineering classes). I felt like giving my degree back! What value does it have, if you can just "grind" through it without understanding?
ON the UP SIDE. I encourage his openness as to where he really is. Be wrong out loud. You learn faster. But also. Pick up a book, and READ IT. Find source code, and read it. Get it to compile, and break it. And fix it, and break it. Until you have a clue!
Or go into Support 
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Don't laugh. Sometime back I was told that having a DEGREE in I.T. meant that you could build a spreadsheet or know how to populate a database (Access, etc.)
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I think the first question that needs to be asked is "What is the purpose of the Computer Science Department?" Is it to turn out coders? Is it to turn out Software Engineers? It is typically part of the Science faculty, just like the Chemistry Department and the Physics Department. What does the Chemistry Department do? Does it turn out people who can mix chemicals? Does it turn out people who can design chemical plants? And what does the Physics Department do? Does it turn out people who can do physics experiments? Does it turn out people who can design elevators and jetliners?
The Science Faculty is supposed to teach people how to think and to use the scientific method to explore the world/universe around us. They are not responsible or equipped to turn out Engineers, be it Mechanical, Electrical, Civil, Chemical or Software Engineers.
Case in point. An Engineering Professor was teaching a Software Engineering Course and was hauled before the university disciplinary committee for teaching research material to undergrads. The evidence of his crime was a state transition diagram. The typical Science Faculty is not equipped to turn out Software Engineers any more than it is equipped to turn out Engineers to build nuclear reactors. This situation has been slowly changing but obviously not fast enough.
In my 25 years in the software business, I have only found 2 software developers who knew the engineering definition of the word "Design".
Roughly half of all people employed as software developers have any formal training in Software Development (and I am including a Computer Science Degree).
90 percent of all software developers (and their management) have no idea what configuration management is or what its purpose is. Most think that a developer managed tool is CM.
Most developers (and their management) believe that inspections are less efficient than testing at finding defects.
Most software development organizations use a development process that includes frequent merges (well it works so well when developing jet planes and skyscrapers).
Something has to change and it needs to change soon. We see evidence every day that our most secure software systems have more holes than a Swiss Cheese.
The vast majority of software development organizations do not use metrics, even if they collect them. Even brick layers are more sophisticated that software development shops when it come to metrics.
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That just about sums it up. And from both perspectives it makes uncomfortable reading. 
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You wonder if the person went to the wrong classroom and wound up with a degree due to a clerical error. That's what you get when you use your student's projects for real.
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Maybe you know more than you give yourself credit for. Read about the Dunning Kruger effect and you might feel a little better about your skills. (Search on google).
Simply put - the Dunning Kruger effect posits that "the more you know, the more you know what you don't know." This results in people who know little overestimating their ability, and conversely, people with more experience having a more realistic view of their skills.
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If you cross a dog with a vegetable, would you get a Collie Flower?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Flowers are vegetables?
Cross a river with a mutt, p'raps?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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All i know is if you cross a bulldog and a shihtzu, you would get a bull$**+ 
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If either the bride or groom is below the age of consent they cantaloupe. How they'll marry beet's me.
If you crossed you dog with a tree it would still have bark.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: If you crossed you dog with a tree it would still have bark.
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