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I have been using Node.JS for a long time now. I jumped on the hype train with everyone else and now regret it. JavaScript is a pain. NPM is a pain. The belief that everything should client rendered SPA is a pain (yes I have heard people say this. Now Node isn't too terribly horrible, but it is often overkill, and other times just annoying. I have decided that I am going to stop using Node for everything and perhaps stop using Node primarily.

I primarily freelance. I do anything from simple sites for small businesses, more complex sites with features like e-commerce, and even some mid-sized web applications. I want to learn something that is mature, but not COBOL mature and can handle anything from small sites to larger applications. I also purposely want to avoid learning any of the "hip" languages for right now (i.e. Go)

So far, I have had much trouble debating what to learn. At first, I looked towards Ruby on Rails. I actually don't mind the Ruby language, and Rails has been popular for a while now. I gave that option up quickly, though. After a little research, I decided RoR was dead, at least in respect to new projects. I can't find very many RoR programmers that are not moving to Elixir and Phoenix. ASP.Net was ok. ASP.Net WebPages provided simple support for small sites needing only a little information from the backend. ASP.Net WebForms provided a step up for bigger websites needing more complex features and ASP.Net MVC could be used for larger websites and complex web applications. There were a few issues, though. I hate being tied to Microsoft. VS is great and all, but I would be forced to use SQL Server and it would be hard to find hosting. Plus, with the release of ASP.Net core, WebPages and WebForms are gone so ASP.Net will be overkill for smaller sites. I next looked at Python. The language is pretty good. and I don't see Django or Flask becoming obsolete too soon, but I am not sure about that. From what I've seen, Python will be primarily a data science language and will shy away from web development. I have recently evaluated PHP too. At one point I was a PHP hater, but the language and it's tooling seem to have improved greatly. PHP is great for simple sites, but if I need a more complex site or application, there are great frameworks like Laravel or Symphony. For someone without much exposure to PHP,

however, it seems a little hard to learn. Not in the aspect of language complexity, but in the aspect of outdated tutorials, documentation, etc.... Most PHP7 tutorials I see assume you were a PHP5 developer and to many tutorials make use of obsolete technologies such as the old MySQL library.

So at this point, the only two I have seriously contemplated are PHP and Python. At this point, I am stuck on which to learn. I really like Django, but I am not sure if it will last. PHP is time tested, but I'm waiting for many tools to get up to date with PHP7.
What do y'all think? Are there options I should have evaluated that I missed. Given my requirements listed throughout the first few paragraphs, how can I best make a decision between PHP, Python, or anything else?

i cri evry tiem

My highly opinionated response.

Python is great for small things. Python sucks for large development because productivity is crippled by having to run code (either manually or by writing unit tests) to fix stupid syntax errors that a compiled language would tell you about right away (or even the IDE).

Django, like Rails, is an opinionated framework. New releases break old code, at least major new releases, from what I've seen. We're stuck on Python 2.7 and an old version Django because everything will break if we upgrade and also because of the customization that was done to Django. And Django is written in Python, see first point.

Ruby is an awful language actually. RoR is an interesting but opinionated framework, like Django, and I don't buy into their opinions.

ASP.NET/WebPages/WebForms all just seems like overkill to web development, especially when integrated with Entity Framework, its potential tie in with IIS, and its interdependency with SQL Server.

So, in my equally opinionated world, but at least they're my opinions:

I don't use ASP.NET/Web-whatever, or IIS. I use C# for server development and have a robust and efficient set of modular components that I wrote for serving the web pages, js, css, doing logging, emailing, configuration management, etc.
I have a boilerplate library of HTML/JS/CSS and backend C# endpoints that I use for site basics: registration, email, authentication, authorization, etc.
I'm not married to SQL Server because I don't tie in to frameworks that use SQL Server. But the only other contender that I like to work with is PostgreSQL, the rest I won't touch.
SPA is not a pain. I've used Backbone at work, it's easy to use if you color within the lines, I also use my own simple SPA js library, and there are some interesting (and small) SPA frameworks out there that I haven't looked at if you don't want to use Backbone.
I won't touch Angular. I never jumped on the Angular bandwagon, and when I read the A-v2 would not be compatible with A-v3, I was glad I didn't.
I've found that the real complexity of web development is actually the UI. The mess of HTML, CSS, and Javascript. While the pain of UI itself can't easily mitigated for the non-boilerplate stuff, sticking with some existing frameworks (I'm getting enough experience with Boostrap and jqWidgets to actually do meaningful things nowadays) has helped me a lot when it comes to learning the pain points of said frameworks.
I have a strict web development process now:

a. develop the DB models with unit tests
b. develop the server REST calls with unit tests
c. iterate a & b until the back-end does what it's supposed to do
d. develop the UI
e. tie in the REST calls
f. fix a&b as a result of real-use-case UI requirements
g. done

I would say (opinionated again) that's it's essentially a task-independent process, it's also fairly language independent, but I love working in C# for a-c, and I deal with js/html/css + Bootstrap/Knockout/jqWidgets for d and e. Backbone I use only at work, might use it for some personal projects, but can't really answer "why would I" sufficiently.

On the server-side, besides my personal library, NewtonsoftJson and FluentMigrator are the only third party pieces I use, believe it or not.

And ironically (or actually, pretty cool) many of the components I've developed for the web server are agnostic, so I also use them for developing WinForm client-side apps that tie in the server as well.

Marc

Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly

Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!

Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny

Thanks Marc. I've been swimming in the muck that is the current web-dev swamp, and your excellent description was enough to give me enough hope there is a manageable way through this mess Smile | :)

What language do you use to write the handlers for your REST calls on the server side? Is it C#? If so, how do you do it, since you do not use ASP.NET and IIS?

Dimitrios Kalemis wrote:
What language do you use to write the handlers for your REST calls on the server side? Is it C#? If so, how do you do it, since you do not use ASP.NET and IIS?

C#

HttpListener[^]

Used in my library like this[^].

Marc

Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly

Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!

Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny

Thank you for sharing!

Your method (the Clifton Method of software implementation) is really impressive!

By the way, the last link you gave me is missing an "s" from the end. It should be:
https://github.com/cliftonm/clifton/blob/master/Clifton.Web/Clifton.WebServerService/WebServer.cs

Thank you again!

I use WCF services for json web services with Rest and a simplistic ODATA response syntax. WCF Services are very easy to create. Fast and feature rich. I put a separate service in each dll. One primary project that rolls them up.

Marc is right on to suggest you have layers and unit tests for each. You can use any database, by the way, not just EF with MS SQL.

For the front end, it is all html/css/JavaScript getting data via rest calls. Also, if you research the ODATA standard, you will see this is the way to go.

It is very easy to do. I find mixing front end and backend fine (ASP.NET MVC) but I prefer an architecture that does not mix them.

I prefer the simplicity of knockout over the massive angular frameworks, and as you are not big on a SPA, then I would recommend it. However, angular with a SPA does provide a very good experience, if bloated.

Architecture
[ UI ]-- [ JS MVVM ] -- [ JS Service layer (ajax) ] -- [WCF Message inspector ] -- [ WCF Service call] -- [ Command Manager ] -- [ Repository ]

I also follow this plan of attack

I won't dive in too deep. but with ASP.NET you're definitely not tied to SQL Server. It'll work with a ton of different SQL and NoSQL providers.

My preference is C#, ASP.NET and MVC. VS is getting a little out of hand, but VS Code will run on any major platform and .NET Core is platform independent. Lots and lots of work is being put into this and, give or take a few speed bumps while they sorted out v1.0, it all seems very, very solid.

cheers
Chris Maunder

Do you use MVC on this site Chris ?

We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP

In parts. We're still moving over.

cheers
Chris Maunder

There's also Mono with Apache (mod_mono and XSP), which can run ASP.NET/MVC applications quite nicely, and doesn't have to be tied in to SQL Server (As Marc said, PostgreSQL is a very good database server, and has a LOT of plugins).

What do you get when you cross a joke with a rhetorical question?

The metaphorical solid rear-end expulsions have impacted the metaphorical motorized bladed rotating air movement mechanism.

Do questions with multiple question marks annoy you???

First let me swipe a mystery for you: .NET does not force the use of MS SQL!!!
Every decent SQL/NoSQL has connectors for every decent framework including .NET. And even in has no a native .NET connector, you can use ODBC or OLEDB too... So choosing database and framework are not related really...

I'm an old Microsoft web developer (not old in age but old in experience of almost 20 years)... Used to write web pages in Notepad...
The first step you have to do in becoming a language agnostic web developer is to embrace the idea of the separation. Do not think of your solution as a monolithic one, but pick the best solution for the DAL, the server and the client separately...
After all these years my basic solution for every size of web application is creating a DAL using C# (it has nothing to do with web development and this part of the code is reused almost for every one of my applications), creating a web service (I mostly use C# for this too, but also PHP had it chances) along some standard like REST (I mostly used the MVC pattern here and today I explore the ASP.NET Core to gain multi-platform), the last thing is the UI where the limit is the sky... There are endless libraries with their strength and weakness - you only have to pick your favorite... (I use jQuery for DOM, pure JS for code and a home made variant of bootstrap to visual)...

Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.

Again, choose a language based on the job at hand.
The Elm language is definitely a worthy contender for SPA.
Elixir (for backend), the Elm+Elixir combination will ensure high performance as well.

in my humble opinion...forget PHP and Python. Go for Java

I did Java a few years ago, scared to go back.

i cri evry tiem

You should give a second chance...Things have improved substantially..I find it extremly productive after the usual learning curve that everyone has to go trough.

Hi

My advice is don't tie yourself to one language but have a range you can choose from. Love or hate them I primarily use Microsoft tools. My language of choice is ASP.Net combined with jQuery, Javascript, and Bootstrap (or other web UI framework). There isn't any web application (SPA) or otherwise that I can't generate using those tools. I also use AngularJS, and MVC and even plan old HTML and CSS in a text editor.

(I have to say I am not a fan of SPA, nothing against them, just don't see the point. No I don't want to debate that)

Having been doing these web apps large and small apps for a while now I can get the best performance quite easily no matter what tools and technologies I use, and I've worked on some pretty big systems.

If you bear in mind that at the end of the day your browser pretty much expects a server to spill out HTML and perhaps a bit of Java, so the tools you use are almost irrelevant and your choice in how you want your server to spit out that HTML.

Try not to listen to the hype as its all your personal preference. Find a language and tools that achieves your objectives and go with that.

That said you might be swayed buy potential career opportunities. If you looking to build a career look at the job boards for the most popular tools. It will all change again in a few years anyway so just look to build on any experience you have

I see Java/PHP/Lamp etc requested all over the place, it's pretty popular for sure. I don't use any of that and have never been short of work.

There will always be debates on what is the best and its all nonsense. Most is subjective and personal preference and I stopped engaging in such debates years ago.

As a Java developer, I have to say that popularity [with clients] is not why I chose the environment (if it was, I'd still be using PHP), but because of the ecosystem of *useful* and *well written* libraries. From big frameworks like Spring MVC and Hibernate down to little utilities like OAuth clients and date handling utilities, just about anything you can need is there; just add a line to your maven config and it's downloaded and configured automatically. .NET is *almost* there these days, but doesn't have quite the slickness (NuGet lags a little in usability to maven, IMO) and there's a larger proportion of libraries that are buggy in my experience. But I'd suggest that anything *outside* of the CLR/JVM environment is taking a bit of a risk, because the farther you get away from these environments in which the majority of professional development is performed the more likely you are to find libraries and frameworks that are badly thought-out or are, frankly, badly-written.

I'd agree with that. I've been using .net long enough now to get around most problems in pretty much any libraries Nuget or not. Which I supposed goes to show that what ever route you take (as you say) pick and established technology

Hi

My advice is don't tie yourself to one language but have a range you can choose from. Love or hate them I primarily use Microsoft tools. My language of choice is ASP.Net combined with jQuery, Javascript, and Bootstrap (or other web UI framework). There isn't any web application (SPA) or otherwise that I can't generate using those tools. I also use AngularJS, and MVC and even plan old HTML and CSS in a text editor.

(I have to say I am not a fan of SPA, nothing against them, just don't see the point. No I don't want to debate that)

Having been doing these web apps large and small apps for a while now I can get the best performance quite easily no matter what tools and technologies I use, and I've worked on some pretty big systems.

If you bear in mind that at the end of the day your browser pretty much expects a server to spill out HTML and perhaps a bit of Java, so the tools you use are almost irrelevant and your choice in how you want your server to spit out that HTML.

Try not to listen to the hype as its all your personal preference. Find a language and tools that achieves your objectives and go with that.

That said you might be swayed buy potential career opportunities. If you looking to build a career look at the job boards for the most popular tools. It will all change again in a few years anyway so just look to build on any experience you have

I see Java/PHP/Lamp etc requested all over the place, it's pretty popular for sure. I don't use any of that and have never been short of work.

There will always be debates on what is the best and its all nonsense. Most is subjective and personal preference and I stopped engaging in such debates years ago.

The only time I've enjoyed doing web development was when I used the GoogleWebToolkit (GWT).

All in Java, easy to debug, no hassle with quirks from browsers, etc.
A dauting learning curve, yes, which also leaves you with the syndrom of the white page at first. But also very flexible.

Further suggestion, look into using a framework (Highly recommend MVP) to help you focus your design as GWT gives so much freedom that it's hard to know where to start when new to it.

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