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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: BASH is not a GUI.
I think that was Nathan's point. Linux as an OS does not have a GUI. Linux desktop distros include one (or more) GUI's. So if you're complaining about the GUI you shouldn't be calling out Linux iteself - complain about the specific GUI.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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Point taken.
Although, Linus is apparently working on a Linux GUI: Linux can still beat Windows in the desktop war, and Linus Torvalds is 'working on it'[^]
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I saw that article. My take away was not that Torvalds was working on an actual GUI though.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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You could be right. Even if he were, I'm not sure it'd be any good.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
Git was written by Linus Torvalds, the main guy of Linux. So using Linux to gripe about Git is entirely appropriate.
They are completely separate products. One does not beget the other, so I can't agree. That's almost exactly like saying that Windows sucks because of Team Foundation.
BASH is not a GUI. Maybe a TUI.
...that was kind of the point.
Do these guys (of the gotten software) have no pride of workmanship?
So you're saying that you've looked at every package, deemed it all to be low quality and have determined that the devs therefore have no pride? That's pretty awesome, you must be the best versed Linux guy on the planet.
All I'm saying is that people shouldn't gripe when a screwdriver isn't terribly good at pounding in nails.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Benjamin Disraeli
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You are missing the point and doing what most Linux apologists do--deflect.
From my perspective, most Linux developers have bad taste from the kernel to the GUI and it's all related. The very attitude that "BASH is the GUI, get used to it" illustrates the problem. Why is it a positive do so something with 30 consecutive commands in BASH versus one or two in a Windows prompt?
You know what's funny? Bringing over a Linux guru, doing something quick in Windows and asking "Now how do you do that in Linux." Then watching them open a shell and start typing furiously for five minutes. Yes, that just happened to me this past Friday (and it not only didn't quite do what I wanted to do in Windows, I ended up fixing the problem in Windows!)
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I think you're missing a point as well. The comment wasn't so much "BASH is the GUI, get used to it."
It was "If you have a problem with a Linux based GUI such as KDE or Gnome why blame the kernel (Linux)?"
Some (most?) Linux gurus are purists in that the OS should handle the basic file system and hardware interfaces and that the GUI (if one even exists) is a separate entity.
Remember DOS and Windows 3.x? Similar situation.
As for doing something quick in Windows versus command line stuff in Linux... all depends on what you're doing. There are some things you can do via command line (Windows / Apple / Linux) that have no analog in the GUI.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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You keep deflecting. I was using A criticism of Linux GUIs as further evidence that Linux developers in general are unable to discern between good and crappy software, whether on the command line or with a GUI.
That's why I brought up git and the nonsense of having to do something in 30 steps FROM THE SHELL, which takes a few commands at most on almost every other OS.
Your arguments, in fact, are precisely what drives me nuts about the Linux community--the refusal to accept any criticism. That attitude pervades ALL of Linux; the exceptions are very bright spots.
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Why on Earth would I deflect? I'm not a member of any Linux community. I don't use it professionally and haven't used it much at home (certainly not much in the last 7 years). I'm not a Linux guru nor Linux developer. But...
...I am intelligent enough to see that your rant painted with a VERY WIDE brush, used rather poor logic and formed dubious conclusions.
One could make the argument that the Windows community (right here on CP) acts much the same way about Windows that you say the Linux community acts about Linux. Just saying...
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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Not deflecting a thing; making a point.
You don't use Linux for the same things as you would Windows. You use it to minimize the system footprint and for scenarios that would be challenging-to-impossible on a Windows machine.
Try playing with varied multi-key encryption schemes on a logical volume in Windows for use on an ARM rig with RAM in the MBs and you'll learn that quickly.
Or running a server with flexible firewall configurations based on state management.
Or a single-machine LAN on no budget.
If you need something trivial and in the box, then of course Windows is easier. What you get with Linux is a granularized platform with finer operational control. Powershell comes close, but doesn't quite hit the mark on that.
And if understanding the appropriate tool for the appropriate job is being an apologist, then I suppose I'm guilty of that much.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Benjamin Disraeli
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Nathan Minier wrote: They are completely separate products. One does not beget the other
So what? They had the same father, ergo the same problem: crap!Nathan Minier wrote: the point
I got that, now. 
However, that's the part of the problem. BASH is it, get used to it. That attitude is why most linux software is crap.
Nathan Minier wrote: So you're saying that you've looked at every package,
No, but I've looked at enough to see a general pattern.
Nathan Minier wrote: All I'm saying is that people shouldn't gripe when a screwdriver isn't terribly good at pounding in nails.
Nice metaphor, but not at all what's being griped about.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
Nice metaphor, but not at all what's being griped about.
Yeah. It is.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
- Benjamin Disraeli
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nanner nanner  
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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git has everything to do with my post. It's awful software and is emblematic of bad taste. Try raising legitimate issues with git on Linux developer forums and you'll be flamed. Hell, half the time you ask a legitimate QUESTION, you get flamed.
(BTW, for those who have to use git, here is the best introduction I've seen: git - the simple guide - no deep sh*t![^])
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I used to be a Git hater too. It takes a while to understand it but I would not want to go back. As for the guys claiming to be experts, they probably keep up with the Kardashians... Its one thing to say you're an expert and another to demonstrate it. Don't give up on Git too soon.
Hogan
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snorkie wrote: Its one thing to say you're an expert and another to demonstrate it.
This is one of my complaints; arguing that the expert really isn't so and therefore the criticism isn't valid is a form of ad hominem argument. It's a form of deflection (so is pretending that a criticism of Linux is about GUIs, not Linux itself or git.) For the record, they never claimed to be experts; I've observed them and am smart enough to separate the novices from the experts.)
Interestingly, the more-or-less opposite of ad homimem logical fallacy is Appeal to Authority, another common problem.
BTW, from a business perspective git has been a disaster. The cost in time has vastly exceeded the price for just about any competing commercial product and those costs will keep mounting. (The two bright spots are SourceTree, which is a very well written git GUI, and that we may persuade the powers that be to switch to GitLab, which will help the process flow.)
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Joe Woodbury wrote: No, it's worse than that; they praise the crap applications. Endlessly. And if you criticize the apps, you get heaps of denial.
Most of those apps were written by 'enthousiasts' in their spare time; naturally they defend it more than a commercial developer who creates what is in the spec. On Windows there was also an earlier focus on UI than on Linux, partially thanks to (I hate to say it) Visual Basic 6 and MS Access. Means said commercial dev had specs that included a UI, while the hobbyist on Linux was trying to figure out to make a UI for X-windows, Gnome, KDE, or simply give up.
Joe Woodbury wrote: "Yeah, but what about Windows 8," is a typical comeback.
Lesson number one is that you don't argue about UI with anyone using "M$" as a reference to Microsoft. Simply don't go there.
Joe Woodbury wrote: Then there's git, which is the worse version control system I've used since Visual Source Safe.
TeamSource. Never found anything to match it.
Joe Woodbury wrote: Are you unable to see badly rendered fonts?
I spent weeks on getting an installer to work on Linux, and it 'works'* - I could care less about how it renders its font in the installer, I don't even want to know.
*) as in, works on my machine and similar machines. Depending on your mono-configuration things might blow up in spectacular ways I could not imagine.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Obligatory XKCD [^]reference.
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I don't if it's funny or ironic, but I just had to do that.
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Linux is good for serving you not for looking at , I use it as a streaming media server and file server and wouldn't use anything else, I have set up several music servers using the humble but very capable Raspberry Pis using USB drives as the media storage and they perform flawlessly - pretty they ain't but they work.
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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My favorite is hearing the Linux weenies complain about Outlook's poor UI, but then designing their clone to look like it as much as possible.
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How many years has Linux been around?
Still trying to figure out why it exists at all, let alone why some people think it's the cat's meow.
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I guess he's had his chips! (What? Too soon?)
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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