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wizardzz1-Mar-16 7:18

1-Mar-16 7:18

Jalapeno Bob wrote:
the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.

Because they were upwardly mobile, and therefore able to help.

Jalapeno Bob wrote:
Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community

Because they are no longer upwardly mobile.

W∴ Balboos, GHB1-Mar-16 8:18

1-Mar-16 8:18

Unless, by upwardly mobile, you mean that the parents desired that their children be more successful then themselves, you are quite wrong.

All of my Grandparents and many of my aunts and uncles were refugees/immigrants. Mostly from eastern Europe, so they were made to feel quite unwelcome when they arrived (quotas, etc.). Not all could read/write but all of them learned English. None of the next generation went to college but did graduate High School and learn trades. All of the next generation had one thing in common: they spoke to their children in terms of "When you go to college" not "If you go to college". Their upward mobility was attitude. They escaped the ghetto. That was upward mobility. And it has not been closed: it's a wider door than every and certainly far wider then they (and other ethnic groups who weren't "the right kind of people" had.

I'm in favor of giving help to those who will make good use of it. The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate.

The doors aren't closed - the real problem is that the help is rarely geared to helping you get yourself up - but rather, a narcotic of contentment. Then, when opportunity isn't handed to you it's time to riot and more . . .

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

wizardzz1-Mar-16 9:09

1-Mar-16 9:09

Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival?

Your view on immigrants is the same view that earlier Americans had towards your family. You can look back on your own family's story as a story of hope and determination, but the descendants of current immigrants will do the same with their family. Your view isn't new, you're just on the other side of it now.

Nativism (politics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[^]

W∴ Balboos wrote:
The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate.

I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation.

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Mar-16 0:15

2-Mar-16 0:15

wizardzz wrote:

Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival?
(and)
I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation.
Y

Well, alas, you didn't get it straight at all. An answer that encompasses both of your comments:

The generations it took my family to acclimate was . . . the first to arrive. Learning the st countries language so that more opportunities were available. They worked piece-work, long hours, and faced no shortage of discrimination. The key is they all wanted more for their children, and children wanted more for their children, in turn. So - one could sit comfortably in the ghetto, in poverty, or learn the ways of your host country so you can join in the economy. The current situation is that it has been made too comfortable and convenient to stay in the current equivalent of a ghetto - too comfortable to "stay with your own kind". Too comfortable to set an example for your children (who need not learn the local language) to follow in their footsteps.

I don't say let them freeze and starve - but what I do say is motivate them to do more then miniature third-world environments by making the effort to leave more attractive than the comfort of staying.

I, for one, do not want any second-class citizens.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

wizardzz2-Mar-16 4:03

2-Mar-16 4:03

That's great, so it goes back to my first post then. The ability for an immigrant to be upwardly mobile existed in the past, and it hardly exists now. Natural born citizens, natural English speakers, barely have the ability to be upwardly mobile.

I'm sure we will disagree on this point, but that was my original point.

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Mar-16 4:09

2-Mar-16 4:09

The ability still exists - I didn't ever say it's gone. It's just easier not to bother.

Nothing was taken away, and if fact, opportunities are significantly enhanced: :but only if one bothers to use them.

Don't try to (repeatedly) recast this as the upward mobility is not available. It is, and more of it. I hold people responsible for their own decisions.

As I told my kids (high school/college advice): "you can work hard now - or work hard the rest of your life"

Don't scapegoat "the system" when so many would rather hang out on street corners than study or even go to class*.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

wizardzz2-Mar-16 4:36

2-Mar-16 4:36

That's where we differ and I choose not to argue.

Let me ask, who paid for your college? and who is paying for your children's college now?

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Mar-16 4:46

2-Mar-16 4:46

Who paid for my college? Federal grants, federally subsidized loans, Several scholarships I won from the state. All still available. Graduate school, for the sciences, was a fellowship that covered tuition and some money to live on. My kids also received grants, scholarships, and federally subsidized loans. All now make more than I do, if money is any measure of success.

Interestingly, one of them was a National Merit Scholarship finalist and got $0 for it: apparently sports are more highly valued at a university than intelligence. That, however, is a whole new thread.

So - what was there for me was there for them - and is still there. That, of course, could easily change if the wrong party gets into power and cuts those opportunities so that only the rich need apply.

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein

"As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert

"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Foothill1-Mar-16 7:25

Foothill

1-Mar-16 7:25

This is a thought-provoking but difficult question to answer.

The moral/humanist part of me answers that they are victims in all of this craziness and should be helped.
The nationalist/patriotic part of me counters that with the argument is that refugees who feel the most alien in their host nations are more prone to radicalization which in turn can become 'home grown' terrorists (a belief arising from recent events and a lack of reputable statistics on refugee radicalization rates).

The question then becomes one that cannot be answered without causing internal conflict. Not wanting to live with internal conflict gives rise to other alternatives such as sending them back or confining them to camps until they can be 'vetted' which is an exercise in futility since nobody can vet them if their home is in shambles.

The right answer would be to let them in an help them to rebuild their lives but that is rarely a politically popular move for long (once again taking recent events into account).

if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }

User 84201-Mar-16 7:45

User 8420

1-Mar-16 7:45

IMHO - Don't let them get too far away from their conflicted origin. This is where they know the language, know the customs, know the food, etc...

That means:

0) Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps.
1) Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP.
2) Get them home ASAP.

Only if it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to keep them local should they be travelling to the far corners of the world where they will be forced to learn EVERYTHING new.

There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.

Jalapeno Bob1-Mar-16 8:13

Jalapeno Bob

1-Mar-16 8:13

Mike Mullikin wrote:
Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps.

This is, and has long been, a failed policy. This has left us with peoples who have lived in refugee camps for generations. All their ties to their homeland have long been lost and destroyed. One only needs to look at the Palistinians, the Ethiopians, the Sudanese, .... You get the picture.

Mike Mullikin wrote:
Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP.

Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?

__________________
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User 84201-Mar-16 8:36

User 8420

1-Mar-16 8:36

Item 0 will always fail if we don't execute item 1.

Jalapeno Bob wrote:
Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?

Yes

This is getting a bit too political for the Lounge...

There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.

Eddy Vluggen1-Mar-16 9:39

Eddy Vluggen

1-Mar-16 9:39

Jalapeno Bob wrote:
So how do we help these new arrivals?

Ask the natives how they fared after the "new arrivals" landed.

The people were not migrating en masse after the Iraq, Afghan nor Libanese war, yet suddenly there is a mass-migration. It might be more effective to stop 'spreading democracy' in the Middle East. It isn't an unattractive region as long as it isn't being bombed Smile | :)

Jalapeno Bob wrote:
a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children

This is going to sound incredibly rude, but they reached safety. To put it in perspective, around 120k children in Africa as combattants or support-personnel would love to have a similar problem.

What can you do? Donate clothing (a refugee tends to travel light without much wardrobe), and donate diapers, babyfood, old toys (again, travelling light), camping-equipment you can spare, organize basic requirements as shelter, organize a fund-raising or baking-competition to fund previously named, contact someone who looks for cheap labor and who is willing to pay them, or simply provide a recharge-point/wifi for their mobile phones. Anything that charges those using sunlight can help multiple people Thumbs Up | :thumbsup:

Bastard Programmer from Hell Suspicious | :suss:

If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]

dandy721-Mar-16 10:51

dandy72

1-Mar-16 10:51

Jalapeno Bob wrote:
a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children

How "early teens" are we talking about, considering she's got 2 or 3 kids and it takes 9 months to produce one offspring? Assuming no twins or triplets.

Sh*t like that just pisses me off.

Jalapeno Bob1-Mar-16 12:55

Jalapeno Bob

1-Mar-16 12:55

Children as young as 11 are having children. In countries where child marriage is common, having two or more children by the age of 15 is, unfortunately, not uncommon. These days, most urban school districts right here in the United States have a number of teenage students and a few pre-teenage students with children.

dandy721-Mar-16 16:28

dandy72

1-Mar-16 16:28

I realize it happens - but when it does, around most of the world, it's very much frowned upon, to put it mildly.

Yet because they're "refugees", we're expected to show compassion and welcome them with open arms.

Perhaps it's not so wise for our own governments to tell them they're given priority as refugees if they have a family.

Member 116832511-Mar-16 20:02

Member 11683251

1-Mar-16 20:02

I can't speak about how it is in America but I can add my view as a European. I believe that immigration or refugee handling is mishandled by mostly every European country. Either the countries are strongly against it or so pro refugee that our societies fail to handle it.

First of all focus should be put to end the conflicts resulting in massive population displacement. That should be the main priority. Sadly its also highly unfeasible at this point because too many players has too many different interests in conflict regions.

It's not as simple as compromising or letting go of a region or country because that will allow others to act more freely. But no matter how large the task this should still be the main concern for us as humans.

Secondly should be to provide immediate aid and protection to refugees. Aid the countries that takes the most refugees to provide the basics. As it is currently upwards of over 1million a year makes the journey to Europe. It's both dangerous for the refugees/immigrants but also causes major frictions within European countries and between them.

If we can provide safety in regional refugee camps work could be done to legally move refugees in a controlled manner towards willing countries. This would need to have a system for both returning refugees to camps which makes the illegal crossings as well as major economical, political and military moves to make sure one could do this.

I think this is what should be done. Overall standardize refugee handling on an international level that allows for evacuating civilians from war zones as well as lay a foundation to legally move larger amounts of refugees.

I think a large part of the European problem stems from this. Since so few refugees are allocated by the UN people decides to go on about it in their own ways.

Once you move on to what should be done inside the receiving countries it warry more between the countries and gets a bit more complicated. It becomes a balancing act of sorts and I'm not going to go in to it with too much depth but I think priority should be given to families, women and children. I don't think whats happening in my country Sweden will be able to go on for longer without serious problems. Over 100k last year with a population of 10million and sever lack of homes. Where some countries got military industrial complexes we have gotten ourself a refugee industry. This is causing friction and risk causing major backlash which can make integration difficult as well as long term support of taking in large numbers of refugees.

We have had problems with this for over a decade where we have ignored issues and taking critics seriously. Mainly ignoring debating these issues. But I think one important thing that needs to be taken in to consideration is repatriation. I saw a cnn interview with the queen of Lebanon which I found very interesting and while she said it was important to aid the people in need one also had to focus on making sure these people can return to their homes once the conflicts are over. In Europe its mainly about increasing population.

Your question about that family makes it more difficult for me because while I don't think over current society model can survive much longer under these strains I'd never want to turn a way someone in genuine need but our blind acceptance has led to adults as old as 45 claiming to be underage which is unacceptable. We also fail to deal with the issues those that are mainly economical immigrants hiding amongst genuine refugees which further adds to this friction.

How it is in American I'm not super well versed in, especially about numbers but as a country of over 300 million you should be able to swallow relatively large numbers. One have to realize that these movements of people cant really be stopped without extreme ways and the best thing would rather be to try and add legal ways that help spread the load and aid integration.

While I'm overall fairly critical to immigration in large numbers I'd rather that we provide help and means than turn people away. I'd be much more open to immigration in Sweden if it wasn't for all the things surrounding the immigration that I think is messed up. If we added obligatory health screens, finger printing and dna sampling, mandatory language, tougher punishment on crimes overall and actual research in to the effects on out society and how cultures clash and how to deal with it Im open to aiding people.

Wall of text out.