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Yeah, because there are so few people in NYC... 
Decrease the belief in God, and you increase the numbers of those who wish to play at being God by being “society’s supervisors,” who deny the existence of divine standards, but are very serious about imposing their own standards on society.-Neal A. Maxwell
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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And even fewer who studied programming at Brooklyn Poly in the early 70s.
/ravi
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This has got to win this year's most obscure response to a Lounge post award! 
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Hence the "OT" disclaimer.
/ravi
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Well, you are still stuck with that award though. 
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/ravi
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In simplest terms, as fellow humans we should try to bring them back to self sufficiency. That, however, is in the absence of politics.
Reflecting upon the current refugee situations, clearly an inspiration for the post, other thoughts come into play - which I will not address.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Unfortunately it's getting worse. Today is Super Tuesday. Give your vote. Raise your voice to the person who can help you.
Rdgs,
Step Gone.
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By posting this to the Lounge instead of the soapbox, I was hoping to start a serious discussion started. Notice that I did not mention their country of origin, religion or native language. There are many places in the world they could be from. The key scramblers on this story are, for me, their age, lack of documentation, lack of education, and culture shock. Almost every civilized country has some sort of a welfare system that could provide for the basic necessities, once they learn how to access it. But welfare does not provide much assist with the other issues.
Also, I did not want to limit the discussion to those landing on American shores. Many other nations, especially in Europe and southeastern Asia, are receiving substantial, if not overwhelming, numbers of refugees from various nations.
We are programmers. We solve problems and provide the tools that allow our politicians (or in some countries, political class) to implement solutions to the pressing problems of the day. To do this, we need to understand and explore the problems and be proactive in our solutions. As an example of our short-sighted thinking in the past: check boxes on a form labeled "Race:" allowing for the choice of black, white, or asian. In our modern globally-interconnected world, we need to think outside of the narrow boxes imposed by history or our local culture.
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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My dear, you're asking political questions not programming. That what the reply is for.
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Jalapeno Bob wrote: the ethnic communities in New York welcomed the newcomers, found them jobs and social assistance.
Because they were upwardly mobile, and therefore able to help.
Jalapeno Bob wrote: Americans have lost the sense of ethnic community
Because they are no longer upwardly mobile.
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Unless, by upwardly mobile, you mean that the parents desired that their children be more successful then themselves, you are quite wrong.
All of my Grandparents and many of my aunts and uncles were refugees/immigrants. Mostly from eastern Europe, so they were made to feel quite unwelcome when they arrived (quotas, etc.). Not all could read/write but all of them learned English. None of the next generation went to college but did graduate High School and learn trades. All of the next generation had one thing in common: they spoke to their children in terms of "When you go to college" not "If you go to college". Their upward mobility was attitude. They escaped the ghetto. That was upward mobility. And it has not been closed: it's a wider door than every and certainly far wider then they (and other ethnic groups who weren't "the right kind of people" had.
I'm in favor of giving help to those who will make good use of it. The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate.
The doors aren't closed - the real problem is that the help is rarely geared to helping you get yourself up - but rather, a narcotic of contentment. Then, when opportunity isn't handed to you it's time to riot and more . . .
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival?
Your view on immigrants is the same view that earlier Americans had towards your family. You can look back on your own family's story as a story of hope and determination, but the descendants of current immigrants will do the same with their family. Your view isn't new, you're just on the other side of it now.
Nativism (politics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[^]
W∴ Balboos wrote: The current calamity, if you wish to so classify it (I do) as that it's made too easy to remain in the 'ghetto' - where you can speak your native tongue, likely watch TV in that language, take your drivers test in that language, and essentially never have a reason to leave and integrate.
I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation.
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wizardzz wrote:
Just to get this straight, you're saying it took generations for your family to acclimate and become upwardly mobile, and now you are upset that immigrants aren't doing it immediately upon arrival?
(and)
I'm not sure why anyone needs to integrate. It's a process that happens with each generation.
Y
Well, alas, you didn't get it straight at all. An answer that encompasses both of your comments:
The generations it took my family to acclimate was . . . the first to arrive. Learning the st countries language so that more opportunities were available. They worked piece-work, long hours, and faced no shortage of discrimination. The key is they all wanted more for their children, and children wanted more for their children, in turn. So - one could sit comfortably in the ghetto, in poverty, or learn the ways of your host country so you can join in the economy. The current situation is that it has been made too comfortable and convenient to stay in the current equivalent of a ghetto - too comfortable to "stay with your own kind". Too comfortable to set an example for your children (who need not learn the local language) to follow in their footsteps.
I don't say let them freeze and starve - but what I do say is motivate them to do more then miniature third-world environments by making the effort to leave more attractive than the comfort of staying.
I, for one, do not want any second-class citizens.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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That's great, so it goes back to my first post then. The ability for an immigrant to be upwardly mobile existed in the past, and it hardly exists now. Natural born citizens, natural English speakers, barely have the ability to be upwardly mobile.
I'm sure we will disagree on this point, but that was my original point.
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The ability still exists - I didn't ever say it's gone. It's just easier not to bother.
Nothing was taken away, and if fact, opportunities are significantly enhanced: :but only if one bothers to use them.
Don't try to (repeatedly) recast this as the upward mobility is not available. It is, and more of it. I hold people responsible for their own decisions.
As I told my kids (high school/college advice): "you can work hard now - or work hard the rest of your life"
Don't scapegoat "the system" when so many would rather hang out on street corners than study or even go to class*.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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That's where we differ and I choose not to argue.
Let me ask, who paid for your college? and who is paying for your children's college now?
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Who paid for my college? Federal grants, federally subsidized loans, Several scholarships I won from the state. All still available. Graduate school, for the sciences, was a fellowship that covered tuition and some money to live on. My kids also received grants, scholarships, and federally subsidized loans. All now make more than I do, if money is any measure of success.
Interestingly, one of them was a National Merit Scholarship finalist and got $0 for it: apparently sports are more highly valued at a university than intelligence. That, however, is a whole new thread.
So - what was there for me was there for them - and is still there. That, of course, could easily change if the wrong party gets into power and cuts those opportunities so that only the rich need apply.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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This is a thought-provoking but difficult question to answer.
The moral/humanist part of me answers that they are victims in all of this craziness and should be helped.
The nationalist/patriotic part of me counters that with the argument is that refugees who feel the most alien in their host nations are more prone to radicalization which in turn can become 'home grown' terrorists (a belief arising from recent events and a lack of reputable statistics on refugee radicalization rates).
The question then becomes one that cannot be answered without causing internal conflict. Not wanting to live with internal conflict gives rise to other alternatives such as sending them back or confining them to camps until they can be 'vetted' which is an exercise in futility since nobody can vet them if their home is in shambles.
The right answer would be to let them in an help them to rebuild their lives but that is rarely a politically popular move for long (once again taking recent events into account).
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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IMHO - Don't let them get too far away from their conflicted origin. This is where they know the language, know the customs, know the food, etc...
That means:
0) Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps.
1) Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP.
2) Get them home ASAP.
Only if it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to keep them local should they be travelling to the far corners of the world where they will be forced to learn EVERYTHING new.
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Establish well run and well supplied refugee camps.
This is, and has long been, a failed policy. This has left us with peoples who have lived in refugee camps for generations. All their ties to their homeland have long been lost and destroyed. One only needs to look at the Palistinians, the Ethiopians, the Sudanese, .... You get the picture.
Mike Mullikin wrote: Solve the conflict that is the source of their problem ASAP.
Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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Item 0 will always fail if we don't execute item 1.
Jalapeno Bob wrote: Or, are you advocating that the United Nations, or some other international body, should send troops to reshape their homeland, by force, to create a place for them to return to?
Yes
This is getting a bit too political for the Lounge...
There are two types of people in this world: those that pronounce GIF with a soft G, and those who do not deserve to speak words, ever.
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Jalapeno Bob wrote: So how do we help these new arrivals?
Ask the natives how they fared after the "new arrivals" landed.
The people were not migrating en masse after the Iraq, Afghan nor Libanese war, yet suddenly there is a mass-migration. It might be more effective to stop 'spreading democracy' in the Middle East. It isn't an unattractive region as long as it isn't being bombed
Jalapeno Bob wrote: a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children
This is going to sound incredibly rude, but they reached safety. To put it in perspective, around 120k children in Africa as combattants or support-personnel would love to have a similar problem.
What can you do? Donate clothing (a refugee tends to travel light without much wardrobe), and donate diapers, babyfood, old toys (again, travelling light), camping-equipment you can spare, organize basic requirements as shelter, organize a fund-raising or baking-competition to fund previously named, contact someone who looks for cheap labor and who is willing to pay them, or simply provide a recharge-point/wifi for their mobile phones. Anything that charges those using sunlight can help multiple people
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Jalapeno Bob wrote: a husband in his late teens, a wife in her early teens and two or three very young children
How "early teens" are we talking about, considering she's got 2 or 3 kids and it takes 9 months to produce one offspring? Assuming no twins or triplets.
Sh*t like that just pisses me off.
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Children as young as 11 are having children. In countries where child marriage is common, having two or more children by the age of 15 is, unfortunately, not uncommon. These days, most urban school districts right here in the United States have a number of teenage students and a few pre-teenage students with children.
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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